The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
You're viewing part of a thread.
-
Cool, so you want to use trans genocide to justify your position, and you'll listen to the trans people who agree with you but not to trans people to disagree with you.
This is good ally behavior /s
Don't give a shit who you vote for but if you want to actually stop fascism you have to go join a socialist org. Liberals are structurally incapable of stopping fascism, as fascism is capitalism in decay and liberals support capitalism as their number 1 priority.
-
In a situation where I am being told to do 2 conflicting things that are effectively mutually exclusive, yes, I will pick the person I know's wishes over some random stranger.
-
Don’t give a shit who you vote for but if you want to actually stop fascism you have to go join a socialist org. Liberals are structurally incapable of stopping fascism, as fascism is capitalism in decay and liberals support capitalism as their number 1 priority.
Is this mutually exclusive with your friend's statement?
-
You should pick the correct thing rather than treating trans people like Pokemon.
-
I'm merely acting on the wishes of the person who asked me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-
Not true. You made sure to make this about trans people and the political violence done to them and then tried to weasel out of listening to the trans person here that knows you should oppose genocide.
Please stop using trans people to justify support of genocide.
-
See, here's the problem: all you are doing is ignoring the wishes of another trans person. If we want to go with the magical route of a single person can be representative of an entire group of people, then I'd be able to accept your request. However, we do not, and what I am saying is true that trans people will be harmed by me not supporting Kamala. Not every single trans person cares about this issue as much as Palestine, which is fine, but there are at least some who do, so my stance is valid.
Hell, we can go further if you like: I could ask you to not let my Ukrainian friend be killed by Russia when the Republicans cut off support for it and the anti-air systems go offline.
There are no shortages of tragedies in the world that have no easy immediate fixes, and sometimes simply reducing the damage is the only option; other times you can't do anything, and sometimes the lives of one side get weighed against the other. Shit sucks
-
See, here's the problem: all you are doing is ignoring the wishes of another trans person.
This is what it means to not treat a demographic like a monolith. You have to actually develop correct positions and understand what solidarity means. You can't just go off of what a given person from a demographic tells you as if it is a representative gospel. This is a liberal tokenization of identity, it is by definition going to be inconsistent, and it is counterproductive because it is always used in bad faith to justify a violent status quo and present it as, "THE [demographic] position", and, as in your case, typically to attempt and pit the marginalized against each other.
It is common for naive white people to act this way and be easily taken in by tokenizing bullying logic, then repeat it themselves.
"My trans friend asked me to support a genocider" is not a valid excuse. You have simply adopted a false consciousness that works against solidarity, trying to let yourself off the hook for even thinking through this topic. Apparently I should be arguing with your trans friend because you are not responsible for your own opinions or actions, here.
If we want to go with the magical route of a single person can be representative of an entire group of people, then I'd be able to accept your request. However, we do not, and what I am saying is true that trans people will be harmed by me not supporting Kamala.
Trans people will also be harmed by supporting Kamala. Do you think there are no trans Palestinians? Do you see how your indoctrination leads you to pit marginalized groups against one another? Why can you not fight for trans liberation and against the genocide? Thousands, possibly even millions, do this every single day.
Not every single trans person cares about this issue as much as Palestine, which is fine, but there are at least some who do, so my stance is valid.
There is no logic to be found in those statements, though they are presented as if the conclusion follows from the earlier statement.
Hell, we can go further if you like: I could ask you to not let my Ukrainian friend be killed by Russia when the Republicans cut off support for it and the anti-air systems go offline.
Another good example of how far "my X friend said" will get you, or can even be counterproductive. Russia invaded Ukraine in response to decades of NATO (US)-based aggressions using Ukraine as a pawn. That was bipartisan actikn, though the most salient escalations happened under Democratic administrations. After Russia invaded, the Biden-Harris administration then fully committed to a strategy to hurt Russia regardless of how it damaged Ukraine and Ukrainians. They will gladly force escalations in a fight to the last Ukrainian. The people you are trying to support are responsible for the exact situation Ukraine is in, leveraging cynical, maximalist foreign policy regimes to ramp up tensions and push last red lines in order to hurt and take down other countries, not to support the people there.
Ending the war in Ukraine ASAP is the priority if you care about Ukrainians. Before they lose even more people and sell off even more of the country to foreign capital. If you think Trump will do this by no longer using Ukraine as a vehicle to throw weapons at Russia, you should, apparently, support Trump. Personally, I organize against both parties.
There are no shortages of tragedies in the world that have no easy immediate fixes
These are not natural disasters, they are geopolitical developments that have people and rationalrs and economic bases and interests. In this case the people you are openly supporting are doing a genocide. It is not something to "fix" as if they just happened upon a broken machine. They are active in its creation, they are its explicit material supporters in an ongoing genocide.
Notice that you cannot even describe who has blame. You adopt the passive voice just like they tell you to. Wouldn't want to actually criticize the genociders, right? That might cost them an election? This is you: "go team genocide!"
and sometimes simply reducing the damage is the only option;
Normalizing genocide and repeating tokenizing and absurd talking points from the party doing genocide is not reducing harm.
other times you can't do anything, and sometimes the lives of one side get weighed against the other. Shit sucks
You can always do something, but you would need to take that first step of doing anything at all in the right direction.
-
Their Ukraine bit was obvious bait. In a context where there were actually onlookers left, it's bad bait to take because you can see how they then used your response as an excuse to pretty much completely ignore everything else you said and go "muh tankies".
-
I gladly accept that bait, it is useful fodder.
-
Understood, as you were 🫡
-
-
-
Ah, the classic tankie defending Russia, the country with the constant historical instances of brutalizing the nations around it.
I guess it sucks that Russia can't simply smash Ukraine like they did last time in the 20s, because nothing bad happened after Ukraine was subjugated a decade later lol
Oh, who am I kidding? You probably don't believe the USSR did anything bad.
As for your other statements: I'm going to operate under the idea of protecting the people I know vs those I don't, as there is basically nothing I can do to stop the problem, and I've already determined that going with the less damaging to them option is the superior one to not. I'd be happy to have an option that both keeps the people I care about safe AND stop genocide, but if I can't, I'm taking the next best thing - it really is that simple.
If you can't accept that and want to call me a genocide lover, go off lol, your words are worth as little as the next person's.
-
Ah, the classic tankie defending Russia, the country with the constant historical instances of brutalizing the nations around it.
Notice that at no point did I defend Russia. You are simply making things up now, tacitly admitting to a bankrupt position. You then went on a little fictitious jubilee of making things up, believing them, and then making fun of them. Did you enjoy your public fantasizing? I'll remind you that you are justifying support for genocide.
As for your other statements: I'm going to operate under the idea of protecting the people I know vs those I don't
So open chauvinism. Morally bankrupt.
as there is basically nothing I can do to stop the problem
I have already addressed this. Refer to the things I said that you conveniently skipped over.
and I've already determined that going with the less damaging to them option is the superior one to not.
I have already addressed this. Refer to the things I said that you conveniently skipped over.
I'd be happy to have an option that both keeps the people I care about safe AND stop genocide, but if I can't, I'm taking the next best thing - it really is that simple.
I have already addressed this. Refer to the things I said that you conveniently skipped over.
If you can't accept that and want to call me a genocide lover
I have no need for exaggerative labels, only accurate ones that are uncomfortable for you. You support genociders and normalize genocide as a lesser evil policy plank. You do so with rhetoric that tokenizes trans people and speak flippantly about the similarities between your logic and support for Himmler. You claim to care about the genocide of Palestinians but then make references to their actual plight about yourself and your own feelings. You acknowledge your position is pure chauvinism, though you do not have the vocabulary to describe it as such.
You can avoid being labeled by descriptions of your behavior by not engaging in those behaviors. If you feel bad about any of that bad faith or bigoted behavior, perhaps do some self-criticism rather than trying to pretend I am being absurd.
go off lol, your words are worth as little as the next person's.
Announcing your own intransigence in the face of reason is not a zinger lol
-
Sigh... we both know this isn't going anywhere. Neither of us will give in because both of us feel strongly about our positions and will not budge on them because of our feelings that we are doing the right thing (and no amount of saying I support genociders will change that).
Anything you say that's less than Russia totally pulling out of Ukraine I can easily say is supporting genocidal dictators in the same way you say voting for the Democrats is supporting genocidal regimes and we can keep going back and forth ad nauseum, so I'll save us both the trouble.
Just remember, the average American is wildly less socially conscious than you'd like to believe, though the fact that so many poor factory workers are anti-union should make that somewhat self-evident. Whatever you plan to do better be a bit more compelling than just talking about Muslims a world away to the decidedly closed-minded rural population of Middle America.
-
Sigh... we both know this isn't going anywhere. Neither of us will give in because both of us feel strongly about our positions and will not budge on them because of our feelings that we are doing the right thing (and no amount of saying I support genociders will change that).
No, this is not a principled disagreement. You have repeatedly had to deflect, ignore, and mischaracterize to dance around challenging points. I do not care about the "strength" or your beliefs, though it is clearly flimsy given this insecure behavior.
Anything you say that's less than Russia totally pulling out of Ukraine I can easily say is supporting genocidal dictators
Please refer to what I've already said about Russia and reply to it if you'd like to discuss that topic. I am not interested in discussing or defending your imagination.
Just remember, the average American is wildly less socially conscious than you'd like to believe
Oh? How socially conscious do I believe the average American is? When have we ever talked about anything like that whatsoever?
Ah, right, we haven't.
I guess we have reached a point where you will offer nothing more than straw men and patting yourself on the back. I hope that you someday have the courage of your "convictions" and can engage in good faith, especially when it comes to topics like support for genocide.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-