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So the meme is in agreement that defacing Stonehenge as a protest was pointless?
There are ways to get attention for a cause without defacing one of the seven wonders of the world. Next time spray that cornstarch in BP’s corporate parking lot.
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The fact that you missed the Stonehenge under water worries me.
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I saw it. That implies that spraying cornstarch won’t change anything. Think about it.
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THEN WHAT FUCKING WILL CHANGE ANYTHING
Because this is the only thing that gets people like you to even talk about this.
edit: I want to be clear that I don't care if it's rude or uncivil to talk to people about this like this, I will do it again and again and again and I support efforts to be annoying about it, because at this point it's all we have left to maybe, potentially, get enough people angry enough that someone, somewhere does something. Anything
You're all making your frowny faces and saying "This is counter-productive" and you're simply not getting it.
If through some magical means we were to learn that nuking Manhattan would somehow lower global temperatures, then we would need to do that, just up and vaporize 1.6 million people. It would STILL be the ethically superior action to take if it magically worked. Because in the next century billions of people may die.
If we learned that filling the Grand Canyon with concrete would get companies to stop producing carbon waste and get people to accept inconveniences like electric cars and paper straws without whinging like a wounded toddler, then yes, line up those cement mixers.
When it comes to the trolly problem, you're all not even looking at the right tracks if you're so upset about incivility or annoyances when it comes to climate activism. If anyone is left to do it, one day they will erect statues of these kids throwing soup at paintings and coloring rocks.
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I know this is nitpicking but.. I'd say the biggest issue with electric car now is the pricing. What do you think poor people should do?
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We should ride bicycles and public transit, and the government should be investing in rail and walkability for us
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Exactly what I thought, we need less cars.
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If you make a tax-deductible donation to your local transit authority (check your state if it's deductible) then the government is basically paying more for mass transportation than they had budgeted. Our taxes are one of our most powerful tools in the US for deciding what gets funded and nobody uses that tool. Likely because it's hard enough to stay fed than donate sums of cash to already-functioning institutions, but imagine if enough people just did this a little.
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That's great advice for an american, but do you have any for australians like me?
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Yeah. Graduate highschool.
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Hold onto something tightly so you don't fall off the bottom of the globe!
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What do you think poor people should do?
They should throw their wooden shoes into the cogs of the windmills.
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The less smartass answer is you get involved in your local politics. Make sure the people being elected to your communities represent you and your interests and make sure your interests are well vocalized. Gain some support, get some people on your side, do the hard, uncomfortable thing that costs nothing but makes the biggest difference.
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You need to learn to become compelling if you want to be heard. Annoying people will get you ignored, and likely discredited.
Also, you know nothing about me.
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Not clicking, not looking, this isn't even about you, this is bigger than you. Every individual needs to get a lot better about getting their head out of their own ass.
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You wrote “people like you” referring to me. Consider this lesson one in becoming compelling: know your audience.
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Yeah, people like you, who have all the power to say something supportive of those doing anything, no matter how feeble, and instead employ people's worse emotions against something you find annoying. I stand by it. I don't care who you are or what your ideals are, you made a choice here to push back on people who are trying to save our lives. If you don't like the methodology, fine. Who cares. All you do by ranting about it is give ammunition to those who would still deny there is even a problem, as we all slowly boil to death.
At least the rocks will be clean, right?
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This comment is beautiful. It manages to admonish another for a concept it in of itself can not grasp.
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Fair point. Maybe the knowledge will sneak its way in. Lol
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I dunno, I'm hearing the person quite well. Probably because tone policing ain't my thing.
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This is such a clarifying post.
It's not about being useful, it's about feeling useful. It's about the impotent frustration of feeling you're not having an impact being channeled through a media stunt whether or not it in fact changes anything, or even if it makes things worse.
That is what's going on here, I think. Strategic thinking about this is slow and involves a long road and political concessions and compromises and getting involved hands-on with very out-of-sight things for a long time. This takes a second and it makes it to the news, so it feels like something got done, even if it wasn't the case.
And that's 21st century activism in a nutshell, basically.
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Oh your a spineless defeatists! Anyways...
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That’s the implication of the meme.
I think there are better ways to bring attention to the concerns of climate change than defacing Stonehenge.
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The implication of the meme is that the people talking about how stupid the protests are are actually blind to the very real climate change happening. They might know about it, but they don't really comprehend that defacing the Stonehenge is nothing compared to it being completely underwater, alongside the whole area.
Whether the comic is right or wrong is another thing, and the other guy arguing in bad faith is a cunt, but I strongly believe that's what the comic is meant to portray.
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Yeah I'm sure you were against the BLM protests as well. Begone liberal 👋
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It’s really cool how you decide the opinions and stance of others based on your own opinions. I’m sure you’re always right too.
I protested with BLM in Yonkers in June of 2020, but I’m sure you’re usually 100% correct otherwise.
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And you're someone with poor spelling and reading comprehension.
It's you're, not your.
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Its a poor indication of your position when you mock the delivery instead of the message.
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I mocked his position and delivery actually because I said he also has poor reading comprehension. I read their entire chain of comments before replying, and it was evident @blindbunny@lemmy.ml was having issues reading and understanding the messages @disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world was sending.
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Your elitism is showing. You obviously understood what I said.
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It's you're, not your.
Oh thank God, OPs message was completely indecipherable until you translated it for us! /s
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Go back to reddit
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Very unrelated, but I noticed you have a downvote, visible. Is this possible on this instance? Has something changed or is it a bug? Other posts/comments dont seem to have downvotes, but here I can see that the post and some comments have a single downvote. Do you have any clue? I think only your comments and the post have a downvote, could it be the person you talked to somehow managed to get their downvotes to show?
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Downvotes being visible is possible throughout lemmy because the voting is federated and therefore public. Whether downvotes show depends on whatever frontend you're using, so your mobile app or your instance's web view. There has recently been an update that changed how votes are displayed, so it's possible your instance has updated to that.
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Sorry I don't I'm barely techy I didnt even know there was a way to block down votes.
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Oh its oke (the instance decides if the downvotes are visible and since this post is on an instance that doesnt show downvotes separately I found it weird that I saw a visible single downvote both on the post and your comments.
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I think the wider point is that people will remain ignorant, even when they've irrefutably been proven wrong.
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You have poor media literacy
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It'll make the sea nice and thick.
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I think they totally got that, and their point was painting Stonehenge didn't help stop climate change, as evidenced in the last panel.
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This right here is proof that media literacy is at an all-time low.
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Anyone who doesn't come to the came conclusion as I did is a moron
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He built a man out of straws.
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A whole gods damned scarecrow
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Like the 3 private jets that were vandalized with orange paint in London. That's the kind of thing I can support, it makes headlines, it grounds the planes reducing emissions, and it specifically targets those who are causing the most harm.
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It hasn't made headlines though. Juststopoil goes after oil terminals, car manufacturers etc pretty often but it's never reported on. The only protest that gets attention is souping painting or spraying cornflour on rocks.
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Hmm. I wonder why the media is more heavily reporting one type of vandalism over another?
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Fwiw I saw news articles about the planes being vandalized before I saw this one about Stonehenge, so the headlines do exist. Everyone's news feeds are different though.
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The headlines exist, but Stonehenge is what is generating the lasting discussion and will be the instance that most people in the world know about.
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Yup, in another thread about the planes there's nothing but assholes griping about stonehenge.
Almost like defacing art is actually the more effective type of protest.
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Like the 3 private jets that were vandalized with orange paint in London.
I didn't hear about that.
I am hearing about this.
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They won we're talking about it.
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Because of what happened at Stonehenge.
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The organization itself posting it on their site doesn't mean people are hearing about it. Pretty sure the intent is to get the message to people who don't visit their site regularly.
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There are news articles about this recent juststopoil protest from almost all of the major news outlets. Here's one from the associated press.
People are hearing about it.
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Well i didn't and i follow international news comparatively well for people in my country.
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So the meme is in agreement that defacing Stonehenge as a protest was pointless?
It was as pointless as everything else, that's why they did it, it's screaming into the void to get attention.
There are ways to get attention for a cause without defacing one of the seven wonders of the world
Are there though? I'm old enough to remember this has gone on for decades without anyone doing anything of significance and now we're at the actual edge of global catastrophe and STILL people are like "hmn, those kids should be recycling." Bruh, you and so many people have no idea how many lives are going to be lost in the next century while every milquetoast liberal and conservative in the developed world roll their eyes and get pissed at slight annoyances like... checks notes colored corn starch on rocks you will never visit.
It's like trying to shake someone in a dream to get them to pay attention. And the more you scream and hit them, the more they look ahead like zombies.
They HAVE sprayed BP's factories and lots and machines, they have sabotaged equipment and chained themselves to machines and have caused material harm to companies like BP, but that doesn't get any fucking coverage because media doesn't want to encourage "violent activism" for fear of turning away viewers like YOU who are annoyed by such things.
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You don’t have to sell me on climate change protests. I’ve attended a few myself.
I’m criticizing the delivery, not the message. The majority of people that heard that protest were those who travelled from around the world to see Stonehenge. Their plans were ruined, and they don’t care any more about climate change than they did that morning. Some may even resent the protesters.
Performative radicalism is only compelling to those already behind a cause. It’s discrediting to everyone else, who should be your target audience.
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I’m criticizing the delivery, not the message.
I don't care fucking one bit. It's the same shit.
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I'm criticizing the delivery, not the message.
That's the same argument white liberals used during the civil Rights movement.
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Is it? I used to bring literature to protests, now I bring QR codes. I’ve personally educated hundreds, if not thousands on initiatives over the years. That drives more change than ruining a family trip. Being compelling has been more successful than being loud in my experience.
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I've heard of them. I've never heard of you. Your experience is insufficient data to be making this grandiose of a statement.
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I advocate for the cause I protest, not myself. How many people do you think will be compelled to care or learn more about climate change after this protest? How many people’s plans to see Stonehenge were ruined, leading to resentment of the cause?
Activism isn’t like Trump’s campaign. Bad press is in fact, bad press.
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They have compelled more discussion in this single thread than you have with your whole life. Your moral grandstanding is nice. Effective tactics are nicer.
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Discussion of what? Awareness of what? How do you see debating the method as success in discussion or awareness of a problem? If it were successful, we’d be sharing talking points, research materials, compelling speeches, etc.
This was an egotistical attempt to get noticed. It worked as intended.
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We're not talking about anything of substance because of you and people like you purposefully and disingenuously distorting the facts. Its fucking cornstarch. I haven't had kids because I think the world isn't going to be around for my grand kids and its selfish to create new life with that knowledge. But you keep talking about the fucking cornstarch as if these people smacked your mother. Shut the fuck up. Get some perspective you pompous dolt.
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I've heard of them. I've never heard of you.
Not exactly a good thing..... One of the problems with making a lot of noise is drowning out the voices of others on the same side.
Political capital is a thing, utilizing it in a protest that doesn't really accomplish anything but turning public sentiment against your cause is kinda a dumb way to spend it.
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You say they're spending political capital. I say they're building political capital. They're creating a fuss. They're creating noise, which can then be turned into action. What are you doing?
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I say they're building political capital. They're creating a fuss.
The people who think of this as a net positive are already supportive of climate change initiatives. So who exactly are they building political capital with?
They're creating noise, which can then be turned into action.
How? In what situation is there a problem that is more easily solved when people "make a fuss"?
What are you doing?
Not turning potential allies into enemies?
What are you doing?
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This argument is pointless. Neither of you is right. Arguing for or against optics is pointless.
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The majority of people that heard that protest were those who travelled from around the world to see Stonehenge.
I didn't travel to see Stonehenge and I'm hearing about it. So is everyone in this thread.
Their plans were ruined
And I see that now that the stones have been shown to be undamaged the dismissal of the protest is pivoting to "the poor people taking recreational flights have had their entire trip ruined!!!"
If people become less likely to take unnecessary flights because protestors might "ruin their trip" I would consider that an absolute win.
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I’m criticizing the delivery, not the message.The majority of people that heard that protest were those who travelled from around the world to see Stonehenge. Their plans were ruined, and they don’t care any more about climate change than they did that morning. Some may even resent the protesters.
"You know, I don't disagree that the coloreds should have more rights, but did they really need to sit at the lunch counter all day? I couldn't sit at the counter and it made my lunch take so much longer. Really inconvenient to everyone trying to get some food.
I just wished they'd go about it differently. They're liable to make people even less accepting of them if they keep pulling stunts like that."
I hope you know that's what you sound like. Like, read the first paragraph of MLK Jr's Letter from Birmingham Jail and you'll see your argument in the "white moderate":
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
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Those people were protesting that they weren't allowed to sit at lunch counters. These people are not protesting the color of Stonehenge.
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This argument is pointless. Neither of you is right. Arguing for or against optics is pointless.
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It was as pointless as everything else, that's why they did it, it's screaming into the void to get attention.
It's not just pointless, it's potentially damaging to the cause. I don't mind if someone rubs against the grain of public sentiment for a cause, so long as the way they do it actually accomplishes a goal.
Are there though? I'm old enough to remember this has gone on for decades without anyone doing anything of significance and now we're at the actual edge of global catastrophe and STILL people are like "hmn, those kids should be recycling."
And how does cornstarching rocks, or defacing art make any kind of difference? Is there any possible outcome that benefits the cause? It seems like the only thing this accomplishes is drowning out any other news about climate change for 2 to 3 weeks.
Bruh, you and so many people have no idea how many lives are going to be lost in the next century while every milquetoast liberal and conservative in the developed world roll their eyes and get pissed at slight annoyances like... checks notes colored corn starch on rocks you will never visit.
Just because someone disagrees with you on how to spend the very limited amount of political capital accumulated for climate change, does not mean they are less informed on the subject than you.
I don't give a fuck about Stonehenge, but it's stupid to believe that others do not. It's also pretty stupid to ignore concepts like blowback and public sentiment.
They HAVE sprayed BP's factories and lots and machines, they have sabotaged equipment and chained themselves to machines and have caused material harm to companies like BP, but that doesn't get any fucking coverage because media doesn't want to encourage "violent activism" for fear of turning away viewers like YOU who are annoyed by such things.
Lol, they arent afraid of turning away viewers, they are worried about turning away advertisers. They are part of the capital class preserving the fossil fuel industry. Of course they don't want to spread violent activism. They would much rather all climate activists display protest that they can utilize to turn the public against the cause.
Which begs the question, why are these groups providing the media with ineffective protests that turn public opinion against the cause and garter a ton of negative press in the first place?
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Glad you're here to set us all right. Surely we'll all be okay as long as people are teaching us to be civil and not... harm the cause. God forbid the cause be harmed.
I'm done, a lot of us are. Good luck.
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Surely we'll all be okay as long as people are teaching us to be civil and not... harm the cause.
I never claimed that I wanted people to remain "civil", you can attack that strawman as you wish.
I don't mind people engaging in violent disobedience or civil disobedience, every MLK needs a Malcom X. However, I just don't see the benefit in this particular situation. If you are going to do something that could potentially harm public sentiment you should at least be doing something that materially changes things for the positive.
I'm done, a lot of us are. Good luck.
Get off your high horse, were all dealing with the same problem here. Just because someone differs in opinion on how political capital should be spent, it doesn't mean your perspective has a monopoly on morality or anything.
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You're lost. Move on. The only person on a high horse here is you telling people that they're protesting wrong.
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Sorry for believing a protest should help your cause more than it harms it?
You do know this particular ngo is funded by an oil heiress, right?
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Even bad press is still press? I don't have an opinion on Stonehenge yet; I'm pretty sure the art they "defaced" was only the protective casing; and I haven't researched them enough to form a true opinion of my own
But now I'm curious as to whether (or not) "I think" their motives are "ignorant" or somehow "nefarious" at times. I've seen them in the news for a while now, and I haven't always agreed with their course of action... sometimes I believe it to be too impulsive. But they're still doing it. They've forced a discussion that keeps the issue in the forefront, and now it has me wanting to look-into their situation more. And I do believe-in what they're advocating, even if I'm not sure it's the "correct" way to do it
Yet here we are, talking about it. "There's no such thing as 'Bad Press'", I guess? Are they right?... maybe. Are they detracting from the plight?... also, maybe. Am I sure of my opinion of their protests?... no, not really. Seems like something I'll have to read more about.
So maybe, mission accomplished (in-progress)? Idk, but I see the merit regardless of their actions
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Stonehenge wasn't harmed. The pigment is water soluble, it washes off with the rain. No chemical damage.
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Yet here we are, talking about it. "There's no such thing as 'Bad Press'", I guess? Are they right?... maybe. Are they detracting from the plight?... also, maybe. Am I sure of my opinion of their protests?... no, not really.
Right, but we are talking about it knowing the consequences of not enacting changes. In the US fox news is watched by something like 40% of active voters. Meaning a significant portion of voters actively distrust news about climate change, another significant portion do not think about it on a day to day basis.
Giving the news network ammunition like this only further entrenches these audiences in anti climate change reactions.
Seems like something I'll have to read more about.
Would knowing that this particular ngo is funded by an oil heiress that lives in a 33m dollar home affect your opinion?
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I've seen you mention the oil heiress thing a couple of times. The heiress in question is Aileen Getty. She helped found the Climate Emergency Fund which is basically used to fund nonviolent climate protests like these.
The emergency climate fund also supported the Dutch protests against the fossil fuel industry that ended with the Dutch government proceeding with a plan to end fossil fuel subsidies.
The emergency climate fund has had some success against the fossil fuel industry, so I don't think there is any evidence that this thing is a psyop to get public opinion to be against climate protesters.
It's very possible that Aileen Getty actually feels bad about how her family gained its fortune, and she is trying to reverse the damage by donating to these causes. If this was a fossil fuel industry psyop, they would do a much better job at hiding who was funding it.
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So the meme is in agreement that defacing Stonehenge as a protest was pointless?
The meme is saying you're getting angry about the wrong thing.
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You can be angry about both things, the world isn't black and white. Leave the fucking stones alone and blow up corporate headquarters for all I care.
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You can be angry about both things
And yet here you are being angry about the stones. How far back in your comment history would I have to look to find you being angry about climate change?
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Stop assaulting rocks with corn startch and be more like Timothy McVeigh
Y'all are nuts.
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Does the corporate HQ have a daycare like McVeigh's target did? At this point climate motivated bombings are more like French resistance bombings; there are no good guys in war.
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I’m not angry. I’m disappointed by performative radicalism of an important cause. It doesn’t help the message as much as it strokes the egos of those involved, and will likely be discrediting to those we need to reach.
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It doesn’t help the message
Really? Because I'm seeing it being talked about a lot.
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Debating the method of the performance is not the same as compelling people to learn about climate change and join protests. If anything, it has the opposite effect. It’s only compelling to those already in the fold, and therefore counterproductive to the cause.
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It's also leading to discussions between those complaining about and those "already in the fold", facilitating the spread of information.
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It is though. We're talking about it now, but responding your disproving your own theory.
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Everyone having this particular exact discussion is already convinced, though.
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Conversations on a public platform aren’t just for those who speak; they’re also for those who listen. Many people are simply reading these exchanges without engaging in them. I think this discourse is most valuable for them, far more valuable than for someone whose opinion is so ingrained that they’re the one arguing about it.
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Probably not or there wouldn't be discussion.
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Now, I am not the biggest fan of those kinds of actions, because they are indeed exploited heavily by the burgeois press, but let's talk about attention. I remember there being at least two paint defacings and damaging of private jets here in Germany in 2023 by similar groups. There was next to no press about it - and if you search for it today, it is genuinely hard to find the articles that even mention them, one I found even focusing on the legal questions of insurance, instead of writing about the broader issues at all:
https://www.t-online.de/region/hamburg/id_100188204/letzte-generation-farbattacke-auf-sylter-privatjet-so-hoch-ist-der-schaden.html https://www.aerotelegraph.com/wer-zahlt-bei-einem-farbanschlag-auf-ein-privatflugzeug
So, you would be surprised - actions that target more "deserving" targets often just.... aren't talked about at all, or very little, small footnotes. This at least starts debates, which cannot be denied.
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In the same way, give this a year. Do you think it would be referred to as a “great point in addressing climate change,” or “those kids that defaced Stonehenge?”
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It might just also be talked about as "that event everyone got angry about because of false reporting", or "that event where I argued with some people online, and I realised they made better points than I thought", or "that event that made me think about what actions would have been better". There is more than the main narrative, and more than just a single engagement with it if there's discussion happening.
So, yeah, it will create a lot of hostility, but maybe even a possibility to recontextualise that hostility for some people.
But not to say you don't have any point at all - it's true that it can make some things harder to properly talk about, makes it all the more important to oppose the main narrative whenever possible and not feed into it.
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Quite literally the opposite, no one will remember that Stonehenge was defaced with cornflour, but we will see and remember climate change.
That's just a meme about the fake outrage used as a diversion, instead of the real issue and why people resort to defacing art and monuments for their cause to be in focus.
Any publicity is good publicity.
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THIS
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It's not at all one of the seven wonders of the world, is not even the coolest henge in England and like maybe 5 top five in Europe. It's just famous because it was restored well within your parents lifetime for most of us.
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Or its a representation of what the future looks like if we keep fighting the people who fight for all of us.
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I’m not fighting protesters, I am one. I’m suggesting these protesters do a better job of it.
Radicalism is always discredited by everyone on the outside of a cause, and those are the people you need to reach.
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Can you elaborate?
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Radicalism is mostly supported by those who already support a cause. People who are unaware of a cause, or not in support will typically dismiss the message of a radical performance and focus on rejecting the behavior. The message gets lost, and the only people that cheer are already on your side.
No one is unaware of climate change as a topic. The rate, severity, and urgency of climate change are what gets consistently misrepresented and suppressed. Those are the points that need to be communicated far and wide, and I don’t see how painting Stonehenge compels anyone to learn more about it or join future protests.
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I see what you mean. I agree people need much more tangible details about how climate change is already effecting them and will affect us in the future. As well as the sheer out of proportion footprint of for profit industry.
But even if you where to communicate the details, people would still need to care to listen. The most effective path is probably a bit of both, radical action to turn heads but also have those actions carrying a more directly explicit message other then "acknowledge us" .
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The right approach for more extreme activism should at least be directly related to the awareness. Another user pointed out the jet painting. It’s a great example. Many people are not aware of the massive carbon emissions from private jet owners. It made global headlines, drove awareness of a specific part of the problem, and even briefly impacted emissions by grounding jets.
Stonehenge has nothing to do with climate change. The visitors that that day may even be soured on the topic due to the protest’s impact on their plans. It accomplished nothing but momentary infamy, and is ultimately discrediting to the cause.
I attend more organized protests. I always bring materials for education. It’s always a good idea to supply literature or QR codes to resources to help inform interested passers-by.
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Maybe it drove headlines where you are but for me its a first i hear of it.
Yet everyone is talking about Stonehenge.
100% agree though activism needs more clear messaging.
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@disguy_ovahea has no idea what he's talking about. He apparently attended a couple of protests and thinks he's now an expert on social change.
A horse race has about as much to do with women's right to vote as Stonehenge does with climate change, but that didn't stop Emily Davison's direct action at the 1913 Epsom Derby from being a watershed moment in the struggle for women's suffrage.
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I think the punchline goes multiple ways at once: "the protesters were stupid thinking this would help", "the protesters were stupid in how they tried to protest", and "everyone back then was stupid because it's Waterworld now."
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My understanding was more: people are stupid for buying the media's narrative despite the world being destroyed by what the protest was trying to tell us about, including the thing these people are supposedly upset about protecting.
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nice whataboutism, "they should do this instead". oh they do, but you don't care when they do.
the delivery didn't deface anything, if you want to focus on the delivery and once again ignore the message at least be honest. willing or not, messages like this do BP bidding
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See, I'm reading it as saying that even with 'drastic' action like defacing a tourist attraction, governments just don't care to put any serious thought into the climate change problem. They'll put the blame on protestors for making us think for a minute and then go about their way until the world is uninhabitable.
But that's okay, because for a moment they created a lot of shareholder value in their district.
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There's still people in the boat, I'd take that as "it worked".
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Maybe if you're a doomer?
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