Ask Lemmy @lemmy.world return2ozma @lemmy.world 2d ago

Fellow Americans, which family member are you not looking forward to seeing for Thanksgiving that you know will bring up politics?

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I have no problem discussing politics, but under no circumstances will I ever willingly break bread with someone who voted for Trump. You want to talk about education reform? Economic policy? Foreign policy? No problem. But if you were dumb or hateful enough to vote for that shitstain, you're dead to me. I don't truck with Nazi scum.
- Your comment really highlights the shit state of political discourse and general culture in this country.
  
  Discussing actual policies comes across like a leftist circle jerk because the people have decided that “fuck everything and everybody” is a valid political platform.
  
  Not 'fuck everything and everybody'. Just fuck everybody who decided that they wanted to vote for a man who is a serial rapist, a traitor, a convicted felon, a misogynist, a pedophile, an imbecile, and a con man. There are tens of millions of people who decided to vote for him, and I say fuck literally every single one of those people. Awful human beings, the lot of them.
  
  Edit: upon reflection, I believe that I may have misunderstood the point you were making.
  
  I meant that “fuck everything” is the platform of the dozens of people who voted for the rapist traitorous con man to dismantle the functional parts of our government.
- What about Harris voters, who also support genocide?
  
  I totally get not wanting to break bread with Nazis. But to sit with Harris supporters and not Trumpers projects more concern with vibes than actual policies and outcomes. You’re just showing a preference for blue Nazis over red ones at that point.
  
  This sort of bad-faith whataboutism is exactly what the Republicans and the oligarchs want: keep everyone left of Dick Cheney infighting so they never win again. And it's working super well, especially here on Lemmy.
  
  I’m actually arguing against infighting in this instance. I personally believe both Trump and Harris voters should be ashamed of what they’ve supported.
  
  But I don’t see why they shouldn’t get along with each other. Seems they have a lot of common ground. Their policies are so similar, the Harris campaign had a lot of trouble differentiating her platform, and had to resort to weak attacks like ‘Trump is WEIRD!’
  
  Both camps support mass deportations, increased fossil fuel extraction, support for genocide in Israel, escalating tensions with China & Russia, increased police budgets, etc. Both full-throated support for a flavor of capitalist fascism. They certainly have more in common with each other than anyone on the left. And they both support the rapists & genocidal criminals in their party of preference. Doesn’t seem the Trumpers nor Harris supporters are in any position to be acting too smug to associate with the other.
  
  I’m actually arguing against infighting in this instance.
  
  proceeds to continue infighting
  
  Mmm-hmm.
  
  No, I get what you're saying, but your false equivalency just isn't working because you're conveniently ignoring the absolutely dire parts of Trump's policies.
  
  "No, the sandwiches are the same!"
  
  "...one of them is sauerkraut and toadstool with arsenic sauce, and the other is bologna and ketchup...?"
  
  "But they both have BREAD!"
  
  Look, I'm not interested in re-litigating this. You got what you wanted, Harris lost. Trump is predictably doing awful things because Harris lost. This is the world you chose. Now what?
  
  Can you please point out the significant policy differences to me? I don’t see them. Neither did much of the electorate.
  
  Look, I'm not interested in re-litigating this. You got what you wanted, Harris lost. Trump is predictably doing awful things because Harris lost. This is the world you chose. Now what?
  
  There’s so many differences!! I just can’t name one.
  
  Look, I'm not interested in re-litigating this. You got what you wanted, Harris lost. Trump is predictably doing awful things because Harris lost. This is the world you chose. Now what?
  
  Your "whataboutism" would mean a whole lot more if Trump wasn't even more into genocide than Harris and Biden. So your entire "vibes" retort is complete bullshit, and if you don't know it, then you aren't paying attention. If you do know it, then you're lying to yourself and everybody around you.
  
  LoL. It’s wild that you wrote this thinking you were making a good point. You really think you’re not also fascists, while arguing there’s acceptable degrees of genocide support?
  
  It never amazes me how many people think that "genocide" is a black and white, binary thing. Genocide is committed by people, and those people, in this case, are doing it at the behest of their government. That government is almost wholly dependent on the approval and support of the United States.
  
  Up until now, Israel has committed an incredible number of atrocities against the Palestinian people, and against people who are there to help them (aid workers, UN employees, etc.) They have been rebuked for many of these, albeit in a very ineffectual way, by the Biden government. Even though Biden (and Harris by extension) support Israel's aggression towards the Palestinians, they are queasy about any Israeli action that is too blatantly genocidal. This, of course, has not stopped Israel from genociding, but it has slowed them down to a certain degree.
  
  Trump has no such compunctions against genocide. He is, in fact, a full-blown cheerleader for it. The person he wants to appoint to be the ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, had this to say:
  
  There’s really no such thing as a Palestinian... that’s been a political tool to try and force land away from Israel. There’s no such thing as a settlement. They’re communities, they’re neighborhoods, they’re cities. There’s no such thing as an occupation.
  
  As riled up as you are about Biden's Israeli policy, I challenge you to find any statement by anybody in the Biden administration that is anywhere near that level of pro-genocide.
  
  If you're rolling your eyes at the comparison between genocide supporters, I want to remind you of something: there are still millions of Palestinian people who are alive right now, today. Under either US government, those people are facing potential extermination at Israel's hands. The difference is that one government wants Israel to slow down, and the other government wants them to speed up. Trump being president means that more Palestinian people will die, end of story. Additionally, there is zero chance that any form of government asylum will be granted to Palestinians fleeing Israeli violence under a Trump government.
  
  So, no. There is no acceptable degree of genocide, and that's not what I was arguing. But there are degees of genocide, and voting for someone who wants to turbocharge it is materially worse than voting for someone who wants to slow it down.
  
  You seem to be confusing feelings about genocide with actual material outcomes. It really doesn’t matter if a president enthusiastically sends billions in arms, or feels “queasy” doing it. The same number of people die. And it’s illegal either way.
  
  You people are psychotic.
  
  And if you think Biden felt bad about arming the genocide, you are not at all familiar with his record. There are many hours of archival footage of him calling for exactly this on the senate floor for years. You just bought into the PR.
  
  The same number of people die.
  
  The entire point of what I wrote in my last response to you is: "no. The same number of people don't die. That's a completely ridiculous supposition". Trump being president means that more people will die. As I said in my last response (that you either failed to read, or failed to understand), it is not a binary thing. It's not as if a genocide, once started, must be seen through to completion.
  
  And if you think Biden felt bad about arming the genocide, you are not at all familiar with his record.
  
  I would wager any amount of money that I am far more familiar with his record than you are. Biden isn't preventing the genocide because he values the existence of the Israeli state more than he values the lives of the Palestinians, but that doesn't make him immune to worrying about America's image internationally, and that doesn't make him completely numb to the atrocities. The same cannot be said about Trump, hence the entire dialog up to this point.
  
  So now we’re down to you just blatantly making shit up based on the vibes.
  
  I would very much like you to point out what I made up.
  
  What are you basing your ‘more will die under Trump’ claim on?
  
  Why would anyone think Biden isn’t numb to atrocities? He has supported atrocities his entire career. Even White House counsel advised him he was breaking the law by continuing to arm the genocide. Hard to claim he did so reluctantly, after he’s spent years calling for leveling Gaza.
  
  What are you basing your ‘more will die under Trump’ claim on?
  
  History? Simple observation? Common sense? Take your pick.
  
  Let's start with history; let's take the most famous example of genocide in the 20th century - the holocaust. It was a horrific example of the marriage of brutal efficiency with abject dehumanization, and it cost more than 10 million people their lives, roughly 6 million of whom were Jewish, and who were the primary targets of it.
  
  The Nazis, though they were brutal, thorough, and efficient killers, did not kill all of the Jews. The fact that people survived that most abysmal display of human cruelty is proof enough that once a genocide is started, it's not automatically seen through to the end. In the case of the holocaust, it was eventually stopped when the allies beat Germany back from most of Europe. If the Nazis were less gung-ho about killing people, far fewer Jews, Romani, homosexuals, invalids, and other people they considered undesirable would have been murdered.
  
  The rate at which a genocide occurs matters.
  
  Why would anyone think Biden isn’t numb to atrocities?
  
  The things he's said? The actions he's taken? The fact that there's no real indication that he's a psychopath? Again, take your pick. Let's give you an example of something he's done. In February of this year, the Biden administration released a memorandum that required the state department and the department of defense to ensure that countries that are the target of military aid (read Isreal) are providing assurances that they are adhering to international human rights laws. In October, they sent a letter demanding that Israel improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza, including asking for "urgent and sustained actions by [their] government this month to reverse this trajectory."
  
  Obviously, they have not stopped, and obviously, we have not stopped providing military aid. But I never said that we were. I said that he was reluctant, and this demonstrates that reluctance.
  
  So, both of those things are answered. What else have I "made up"?
  
  Most Harris voters are just anti-Trump voters.
  
  They could have voted for someone who doesn't support the Gazan genocide, but the moment they do, surprise surprise first-past-the-post two-party system strikes again, and their third party vote is counted in favour of Trump.
  
  Good job third-party voters, you've successfully wasted a vote that could have been used strategically for the lesser of the two evils, so now you get the greater evil.
  
  You’re thinking of ranked-choice voting. No third party votes were passed to Trump nor Harris.

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