196 @lemmy.blahaj.zone Moss @lemmy.blahaj.zone 1mo ago

Despite everything, if you're in the US, you should still vote

When given a choice between a millitary industrial neoliberal with a rainbow voting base and a fascist who is one elon musk golf session away from banning HRT, the best option is certainly not to refuse to play out of protest

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And remember to vote for whoever you want. Just because you vote third party doesn't mean your vote is wasted or to vote for somebody else because who knows who you would have voted for if it wasn't for third party. Those people that say that shit can fuck off.

Edit: y'all are just as bad as maga losers. If I don't vote for your guy, it's a wasted vote. Just go out and vote, period, for whoever you want. Ignore all these people trying to get you to vote for their person. Vote for whomever YOU like. Nothing wrong with endorsing a candidate but trying to make someone look stupid or evil for voting is really pathetic.
- Either Harris or Trump are going to win the election. Not voting for Harris is voting for Trump. Yes, it fucking sucks, but especially if you're a woman or a queer person, really think about whether you actually think it doesn't matter which one wins.
  
  Voting is not an endorsement of a candidate. It's a tool. Don't let them take away your rights while you're waiting for the perfect candidate that will never come.
  
  Charitable read: I think they're talking in general, not just for the president. voting third party is actually pretty viable in certain areas of the country for certain state positions
  
  Harris will lose. A vote for harris is a vote for trump.
- yes but also if you're in a swing state maybe don't vote third party for the executive office. Rn the thrid party persidential candidates aren't super strong, and the bulk of political momentum is bipartisan. Local and state gov is a totally different situation depending on your state.
  
  Good point. A candidate from a party that doesn't really have a presence in any level of government and especially zero seats in congress will probably never have a realistic chance of winning the presidential election, barring some exceptional circumstances. If you like a third party, trying to make it viable at the local level and moving up from there seems to be the only realistic option to me.
  
  like the working families party, who actually have some substantial influence in the new york area
  
  Working Families is actually stronger than the democrats out here. I vote WF everywhere their name pops up. They got governors in out here in Oregon.
  
  I'm a big supporter of the working families party. They rule. I honestly think they have the best chance of any of the third parties of eventually becoming a viable player in the American political sphere
  
  (Also WF backed Harris/Walz, they’re not dumb enough to try to tamper with the big race.)
  
  it's such a smart move. best third party by far
  
  empowering parties in this way could pave the way for future third party presidential candidates
- I'm down for leaving people to vote for who they want, as long as they allow their protest votes to weigh heavily on their consciences when January comes around and we suddenly live in the fourth reich
  
  I'll never pretend to respect their decision. They might not even accept they were wrong when they're inside the gas chambers. Besides, them feeling guilty is no justice for dooming people to death. It would be an injustice nobody could ever set right.
  
  I'm just being cheeky I don’t respect it either. Although I truly do hope it weighs on them
  
  This comment has a dismissive tone to it. I'm not a fan.
  
  I don't like being dishonest about how actions make me feel, especially when we are talking about the election of a blatant fascist who wants to deport me to Mexico and then invade it. The stakes are too high for me to not make my frustration clear. Them doing nothing to prevent it is dismissive of my very life.
- Remember: the only people who say this want to see Trump win. You can vote with your conscience all you want, but it's only mathematically possible for only one of two parties to get elected.
  
  If third parties or independents actually wanted a shot, they'd put in the work outside of elections, building coalitions and locally from the ground up.
  
  That's probably the dumbest take I have read yet. If I wanted trump to win, I would vote for him.
  
  Your motivation doesn't matter, only the result of your action.
  
  Your motivation doesn’t matter, only the result of your action.
  
  That's a nihilistic argument. The result of human action is dying. If I had children, they will die one day regardless of what I do, regardless of what their other parent does, regardless of what their extended family does, regardless of what their teachers do, regardless of what society does.
  
  And, yet, intentions matter. Someone voting third party because that's what they believe in is not an immoral intention that destroys the universe.
  
  Why yes, I am a nihilist. I'm a nihilistic hedonist who chooses to value all types of human happiness the most. It's utilitarian at its core, but I also don't believe in certainty about anything. We can only pick the best option from the limited information we have, and I believe the best option is that which allows people to live the fullest lives. This involves making our short time on this earth as full as possible.
  
  I don't think the person is making a moral error in the decision to vote 3rd party, but in refusing to accept the likely reality. It might not even be a moral error that leads to their stubbornness. They may have been taught something that prevents them from changing their mind.
  
  I don't say "it doesn't matter" because I wish to blame them. I have no faith in those value judgements holding much power. I'm saying that on a mechanical level, the outcome of this vote will be one option or another. We can believe whatever we want about the world, but the world will simply do what it does. It has no reason to conform to our understanding of it.
  
  Not adjusting our thinking to fit reality will keep us from making the best choices. I want progress, not the belief that I'm making progress. The desire only points to results.
  
  I am not american. Next I meet a yank, I will ask him.her what s.he voted for.
  
  If they voted for genocide I will spit on their face.
  
  Wow. So brave. Watch out, don't cut yourself on all that edge
  
  They are all so against it but have no problem voting for it. It's disgusting really. And they have the nerve to try make me look like the bad guy in this thread. There's a bunch of shitty people here.
  
  You're not a "bad guy." You just refuse to accept reality. A fool is not a villain, but they can cause comparable damage.
  
  Just think if everyone voted for what's right and not because someone online is calling them a fool if they vote different.
  
  Obviously you believe I'm not voting for what I think is right, except I actually am. I'm not Harris' biggest fan and thought she was a mid Senator, but she was probably the conservative dem I would've been the least upset about in the 2020 primary. She's far better than Biden, who only beat out the actually billionaires in my ranking.
  
  On top of that, she manages to be the best option for president on the ballot in my state.
  
  I despise the green party for focusing so exclusively on the presidency. It makes me think they aren't serious about accomplishing anything outside of thoughts and prayers. On top of that, Stein is shit as an individual politician and my view of her worsens with every run.
  
  The only other left wing 3rd party is the openly tankie party, and I'm not big on those that lend support to empires for simply not being American. I'm not voting for RFK Jr., Capitalists, or Homophobes, so Harris is actually the best choice in my view.
  
  The president shouldn't be as powerful or important, and quite frankly, we've been more successful working within the Democratic party than outside of it. The 2 party system will not go away without election reform done by working within the parties. It's shit democracy, but the only right thing to do is play with the cards we're dealt.
  
  You just refuse to accept reality.
  
  The reality is that humans are going to keep performing actions which limit their own survival.
  
  True 😞
- Except it is wasted because there is literally zero chance a 3rd party candidate will win the presidency. If we’re talking lower offices, then maybe, but if you’re not voting Harris then you are directly assisting Trump.
  
  There is value in showing third parties are growing more popular. It's the first step that needs to happen for a third party candidate to become truely viable.
  
  And yet, if there was ever a time where that isn't worth it, it's when fascists have a high chance of winning. Trump is not a right wing liberal; he wants to destroy the liberal world order that America controls just so no one can threaten his dictatorial power at home.
  
  That may seem like it could benefit leftists elsewhere, but he wants to go to war with neighbors and bully other countries even harder than the liberal empire did. Where the American empire leaves, the Russian empire will take its place. All the while, an old man with no desire to leave a lasting legacy for his family or country is in control of the most powerful war machine on earth.
  
  The first step that needs to happen is building up a third party through local politics, not ignoring politics for 3 years and 11 months and then suddenly expecting a third party to become viable.
  
  Oddly enough, we don't need advice from Democrats on how to run our party, because they want us to fail.
  
  "If you don't agree with me 100% you must be against me."
  
  Oddly enough the same thing "3rd party" voters complain about Democrats doing.
  
  Also, for people who want to succeed it's odd I only hear about "3rd party" in October every 4 years. I'm sure in January you'll still be talking about the importance of building a 3rd party right?
  
  Edit: I don't know why your post got removed, maybe you were banned for something else, but for the record: I'm not a Democrat, but I'm a realist. I would love for there to be a viable 3rd party, but that's not going to happen in the next 2 weeks and allowing Donald Trump to become elected is going to actively make that less likely. Considering what happened on Jan 6th with minimal consequences, if Donald Trump gets elected you might even lose the option of a 2nd party.
  
  "If you don't agree with me 100% you must be against me."
  
  Here's the electoral reality. We have a first-past-the-post, winner-take-all system. There can only be two major parties at the same time. For the Greens to win, the Democrats have to lose.
  
  Since the Democrats don't want to lose, they'll do everything they can to stop the Greens. They aren't going to be doing anything to help us. They certainly aren't going to be dispensing friendly advice that will help us defeat them.
  
  I'm sure in January you'll still be talking about the importance of building a 3rd party right?
  
  I'll be talking about the importance of building an alternative party, yes. At usual, Democrats are projecting. They expect people to vote and then go to sleep for four years.
  
  I've can't remember how many times I've heard a Democrat tell me how stressed they are about the election and they can't wait for Harris to win so that they can go forget about politics again.
  
  Greens are activists. We know that there's going to be a lot of work to be done for the next four years, regardless of who wins.
  
  Except it is wasted because there is literally zero chance a 3rd party candidate will win the presidency.
  
  Because of all the second-party candidates who are supporting trump by still voting harris while knowing a lot of people are appealed by her support for extermination.
  
  Why are you a trump supporter?
- any vote not for Harris is a vote for trump.
  
  Not if they were gonna vote trump instead
  
  Literally no. If they were gonna vote Trump instead but decided to go with Harris, their vote is worth the same as someone who would always vote Harris or the vote of a leftist who decided on damage reduction.
  
  Any voting system flattens our personal motivations into a single action. Any statement you're looking to make is moot unless you have a massive campaign to make it clear outside of the ballot box. Even then, the establishment can downplay and misinterpret your motivation as not being representative or as less important than what they want to believe.
  
  There's no better way to translate our will into results. Any system that doesn't use free and fair voting can be tainted and colored by bias, making it impossible to ever undermine the will of the establishment. They will always choose to believe whatever is most convenient, but votes can deliver a reality shock that forces them to adjust their behavior, even if they never change their minds. The only other thing capable of that is violence.
  
  any vote not for Harris is a vote for trump.
  
  That's not how tallying responses works at all. If you can put a tick in "Apples" or "Pears" on a list that collects the nominal data for fruit choice, you writing in "Sausages" is neither a vote for Apples nor for Pears.
  
  Trump actually gets votes through 1) electoral fraud of various kinds, some of them still legal because the status quo is shit, and 2) appealing to bigots by being a huge bigot. Voting third party, or not voting at all, is not actually the problem. Focus on removing people from society who want bigots in power, and also focus on making electoral fraud impossible.
  
  You can keep saying it. That doesn't make it true.

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