And then when they do make a serialized show instead of an episodic one everyone complains about people being moody due to the trauma established previously ¯_(ツ)_/¯

A 2013-2016 British Sitcom starring Ian McKellen, Derek Jacobi and Iwan Rheon called Vicious. Ian and Derek play an old gay couple who've been together for 50 years and are, well, vicious to each other. Fucking hysterical show if for no reason than to see Ian camp it up. Also really appreciate grabbing two famous gay actors to play the parts.

Cannot help but love how good they are.

Edit: Of course there was no response. Because there are no examples. It's just a dog whistle for bigots.

This again is one of those complaints thats constantly parroted but just isn't rooted in the reality of the show. It's not factually accurate by even the largest stretch of the imagination.

1. The mutiny at the start in the first episode. She is proven immediately false and that her actions of firing first would have caused a war with all the Klingons warping in just to see Starfleet fire first.

2. She (along with Lorca and a few others) make the mistake of trusting Ash Tyler. Something that isn't fully shared. Saru has apprehensions until the divide has been made and even then is cautious.

3. She keeps trying to keep to Federation Ideals while in the Mirror Universe and is proven repeatedly wrong that they don't apply. She might be able to apply them to herself but no one else from that world and it ends up with her nearly broken from it.

4. She spends most of the episodes she's with Spock just outright ignoring him and going on her own path of what she thinks is right. During the Talos IV episode Spock even in a state of catastrophic mental instability is even annoyed by her arrogance at thinking she's right when she's not. Episode also shows her basically arguing with the Talosians and Spock having to say "Just fucking do it."

5. She brings Georgiou back from the Terran Universe and in doing so a planet is almost rendered uninhabitable.

6. She refuses to kill Ariam, insisting that she can save her anyway. She ignores orders and in doing so almost allows Control to complete its mission and kill Burnham and everyone else on board. If it wasn't for Nhan, all sentient life would be dead.

7. Throughout Season 2 she is constantly misunderestimating Control and how they can get rid of it. She's often just as onboard with everyone elses wrong notions as she is wrong on her own. She often goes along with the ideas of how to trap it or stop the sphere but is consistently proven incorrect.

8. As mentioned previously, she constantly shoulders all burdens and pushes through them like they are her own. She is proven incorrect there repeatedly too.

And those are just the ones I can think of off hand from the first two seasons. If I actually looked back at episode synopsis and jogged memory I'd find far, far more. A significant portion of her character is constantly being wrong and learning from those mistakes.

You can not like the show all you want. Not trying to convince anyone to like the show. I'm just tired of seeing complaints that just aren't based in what the show does or what happens in it.

Because Wesley was a stand in for Genes son basically. Wesley had a lot of unearned praise or unearned moments where he ends up saving the day or having a vital role in something that he just shouldn't. The other characters had earned their place but he didn't. He was just annoying and there. The reason I don't like him is because he just feels like a fanfic character that was shoved into the show.

I've heard so many complaints about Discovery over the years. Hundreds.

Cheap is a new one.

Polka dot Andorians

DO IT YOU PUSSIES

Discovery did update the look of the Ferengi for the 32nd Century, looked kinda cool in my opinion. I can handwave a lot of stuff from Season 3 onwards of Discovery because it's nearly a thousand years ahead of what TNG/VOY/DS9 are at. Things gonna change so meh, tweaks like that don't bother me so much.

I will 100% admit to absolutely fucking hating Discovery when it was originally launched. The Klingons were one of the reasons although not a primary one. Took a while for me to come around and even now I'm like "Eh, I don't mind it." I did appreciate trying to alien them up a little bit more while trying to keep some stuff the same. Season 2 had an okay blend of that.

No. Fuck you. We reject him. We have standards.

Sincerely, the gay community.

I'm not a fan of Picard Season 2 but I will give it the argument that it only takes place over the course of like 2-3 days, just like most TNG episodes when you factor in warp speeds and all the time delays that are needed for the things talked about in the episodes.

I'm not sure where you're getting the green screen box thing for Discovery. They didn't use a whole lot of green screen. They built fairly massive sets that were all reused for other shows. The screens that you see in the show as well, like the see through ones and the ones in the consoles, are not added in post. They mass bought those screens and they actually function in real life. Honestly the amount of CGI used in Discovery, at least outside of space based stuff and effects like transporters/phasers/progammable matter is pretty low. Even then the green screens that they did use were replaced by the video wall for Season 4 and 5.

You're not wrong. Picards biggest flaw that people point towards is either not being great with kids or just emotionally stunted. Janeway has so few flaws overall that the only one you'll hear follow her around is "Genocidal" because of Tuvix. Most of her other flaws are episodic like with hunting the Equinox.

Edit: Even then, her flaw in hunting the Equinox is that she cares too much about Starfleet to let them abandon their morals. She's so aggressively pro-Starfleet/United Federation of Planets that when tasked with not getting home for 200 years (it was 70 years at max warp without ever stopping) she put Starfleet morals first and stuck her crew in the Delta Quadrant. Multiple times. So her flaw is shes too Starfleet.

No issue with what you're saying but I will say that Burnham does have some fatal flaws that are throughout the show and not past things she's overcoming.

1. As you mentioned, hubris. Throughout the entirety of the series she thought she knew what was best or had to shoulder every single responsibility single handedly. Spock openly mocked her for it in front of other crewmen during Season 2 and other crew constantly kept saying that she does it or doesn't need to.

2. She's hypocritical as hell but that seems to be a thread through most Starfleet officers. Hypocrisy when it serves you. Look at the Prime Directive for every ounce of proof you'd ever need for any other Captain and hypocrisy but she does it pretty regularly too. Again something Spock pointed out in Season 2.

3. She's hot-headedly emotional because she was a human raised as a Vulcan. She suppressed the everlovingfuck out of her emotions and by the time she was embracing her human side and starting to cope with those emotions she was already well into adulthood. A significant crux of the show is that Burnham has trouble regulating emotion because its new to her. People point this out as a complaint saying she "cries too much" but her character is literally someone who feels things more overwhelmingly because she was never raised to cope. Every season is her overcoming that little by little with Season 4 being all of that coming to a head. Her listening to Rillak and trying to do everything she could that she felt was right while also not doing the stupid shit like abandoning Starfleet to go save Book without asking for permission that would have been granted or freaking out over her biological mother and letting those emotions cloud so much of Season 2.

I disagree because someone sharing their opinion does not limit others from accessing the content.

That's not what gatekeeping in fandom is. Gatekeeping is to claim that either some content is not real <franchise> or that some fan is not a real fan of <franchise> because of <opinion>. That is exactly what OP did by claiming that Discovery was not 'real Trek'. They then listed stuff that were personal opinions and ways that they felt about the show as an example of why it isn't Real Trek. They then changed tact entirely when the gatekeeping was pointed out and admitted they were wrong.

They were gatekeeping. This isn't a matter of opinion, that was a matter of fact. You can disagree with that but you'd be wrong. Gatekeeping has no business in any franchise, nevermind Star Trek.

The first comment was literally "I like Discovery but it's not real Trek".

That is textbook gatekeeping.

Star Trek: Oops All Politics (and it always fucking has been)

Alright man.

People have expectations of things based on past experience. If those expectations aren’t met some people won’t like it. See also: Episodes 1-3 and 4-6 of Star Wars.

Star Wars is probably not the best example considering literally everything since A New Hope has been complained about by fans in some regard. Empire Strikes Back was critically panned at release and even Return of the Jedi had some complaints. Then literally every movie since has had fans rabid. Moreover, Star Wars didn't paint itself as a paragon of diversity.

But thank you for reminding me not to ever post an opinion on Discovery again because I’m gonna get into a flamewar with someone I like and respect and that makes me sad.

I asked questions because I just did not get where you were coming from. You started all of this by saying that it wasn't real Trek. You don't get to complain when someone calls you out on gatekepeing behavior. I'm not getting into a flamewar over an opinion, I was questioning you over your gatekeeping because I find that to be antithetical to everything that Star Trek stands for. I'm sorry that you're upset here but you said that Star Trek Discovery wasn't real Star Trek and then are surprised that the dude who is named after a Discovery character and who is known for defending Discovery.... defended Discovery?

There's also:

• The Host which has Crusher dealing with falling in love with a Trill who moves hosts. It can be seen in some very specific ways as a trans allegory and just challenging heteronormative assumptions about love and attraction.

• The show really pushes a lot of 'Found Family' stuff which ends up being super popular in most LGBTQ+ media because we're disowned by other people. (Data accepted and accepting himself as part of the crew, Worf and Alexander aren't too awesome but Deanna steps up a bit there. You've got Wesley who's kind of adopted by most of the upper ranks after a while.

• TNG is purely "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations" which people see as gay agenda because they wanna collapse anything pro-diversity as just being LGBTQ+ because they have fragile pathetic minds.

• Q is aggressively queer coded. The hyper dramatic and flamboyant personality, the penchant for being a theatrical whore, openly flirting with Picard (and Riker) in such a way that you genuinely aren't sure if he's joking or not, he rejects every type of rigid norm from humanity, Voyager and a few other things even hinted in such a way that due to his ability to change form he's above gendered norms too and sort of gender fluid. Not to mention being the campiest motherfucker this side of the Alpha quadrant. "It matters to me. YOU matter to me. Even Gods have favorites, Jean-Luc. You've always been one of mine." There's also his deep fucking loneliness, something that a metric fuckload of people in the community suffer from. Part of a whole but ostracized and on the outside? Yea.

Easy technobabble fix

Brother, the technobabble is what got us in this situation in the first place. They used the technobabble to create a flaw because perfection in a narrative is boring.

Which I also just do not understand. Why can't the show just be a different type of show? Why must there be an argument needed to be made that it's either more of a movie or this entire discussion in general where it's not 'Real Trek'. TV has evolved. It's not quite the same as when syndication was readily availab.e. TV in general has moved into an era with shorter seasons and more linked together narratives.

I just cannot fathom in anyway whatsoever where the show being different causes such intense feelings in people that an argument needs to be made to distance itself from the rest of Star Trek in general. Star Trek screams diversity from the top to the bottom and fans seem to be fine with that until it touches the TV shows themselves and if it's not the exact same carbon copied and outdated format then it's a problem? I just do not get it. I didn't flip shit about DS9 and say that it was too dark to be part of Star Trek. (People wanna complain about Discovery starting that but all they did was carry the torch that was stuck in the promenade.) I just went "Neat! Inifinite Multitudes!"