I'll reply all in one comment:

make any excuse you want

Sorry you failed math, I guess?

all the evidence is to the contrary

production determines availability. there is no reason to assume we could produce more meat than we do, given land and technology constraints.

meat production happened before trade. there is no reason to assume it will ever end.

Where do you think meat is going? Why do you think it was being produced before trade, for fun? And do you not understand the basic concept that less =/= more, and that less emissions is better than more emissions?

It's really not a hard concept to grasp, but go ahead and keep trying to hide your head in the sand and justify your consumerism while pretending to give a shit. I won't bother wasting my time on someone who apparently can't grasp basic math.

In 2021 Americans ate about 37.81kg of beef per capita per year in 2021, that's about 0.73kg per week, or 1.6lbs.

Cheapest beef in Walmart that I can find, 1 pound for $5.93; so, for 1.6lbs, it comes out to $9.49 per week, for the cheapest Walmart beef. Keep in mind, 1.6lbs = 25.6 oz.

Beans (didn't go for the cheapest): Can of black beans (15oz) for $1.42, another can of butter beans(16oz) for $1.54.

Lentils (not the cheapest): Iberia Lentils 12 oz for $2.59.

Mushrooms (16oz) for $4.34.

So a total of $9.89 for varied and healthy food, vs $9.49 for Walmart's cheapest beef (which realistically would cost $11.86, because you can't just buy 0.6lbs of that beef).

Yeah, because there's more people in total. That doesn't mean people going vegan doesn't stop the growth of the meat industry.

Say 50% of people eat meat, and the other 50% are vegan. Then say the world population doubles. Now there will twice as many vegans, but there will also be twice as many meat eaters, and so meat production will double. But there's still only half the meat production that there would be if 100% of people ate meat. And if you could get that value to 0% percent, there would be no meat industry.

I've heard people say they were both bad, and they were both most appealing to the millionaire/billionaire class - and I would agree - but I really haven't seen any significant number of people that think they were both equally bad. Maybe one now and then, but certainly not enough that it has stuck in memory.

Can you elaborate on this? Maybe give me some examples?

Because for the vast majority of people in western countries (which have by far the most emissions per capita), it is much cheaper to eat a plant based diet. Rice, beans, and lentils are much cheaper and much healthier than eating beef every day of the week.

How so? Meat factories exist to feed the people who buy meat. The more people go vegan, the less meat those factories produce, until they shut down. There is no "green version" for the meat industry, it just has to die, and the alternatives already exist and are cheaper. The power is all on people's hands. The government won't do anything about (not even cut the large meat industry subsidies) as long as people keep eating tons of meat, because they know that would mean protests and losing elections.

As you said, plenty of countries are better in terms of public transportation, but most people still insist on driving cars even in places with good public transportation coverage.

And the biggest counter to the "it's not a personal issue, it's companies who don't give options" is diet: eating meat is far worse for the environment as well as more expensive than a plant based diet; but people hate the idea of eating less meat and they love to mock vegans.

Meat is one of the bigger polutters. Meat industry is subsidized by the state. Plant based diets are still cheaper. The vast majority of people still choose to eat meat and actively mock vegans. Just go look at beef (worse meat for the environment) consumption stats in the US.

That's just one example.

People say they want change but won't take it where they can, because deep down it's a lie and they just want someone to fix the problem without them having to do anything.

The topic is about the genocide happening in Palestine. You said:

The “a vote for Kamala is a vote for genocide” people were literally saying before the election that Palestinian genocide cannot get worse because genocide is genocide.

So I guess this isn’t worse?

Also about Palestine.

I simply pointed out to you that this is nothing new and was happening under the Dems, and has been happening for decades, and then you decided to bring up "concentration camps in the U.S.".

The conversation was not about that.

Why are you shifting goal posts so much and being so antagonizing? Are you just embarrassed that you fell for propaganda and don't want to admit it? Or are you consciously trying to help spread propaganda and make people forget the Dems supported Genocide?

Either way you are certainly not helping the image that internet forum mods are insufferable people. I'm moving on from this conversation.

Ok? I don't disagree, but that's not what this conversation is about. We are talking about Palestinian genocide and specifically the occupation of the West Bank. And either way, I haven't heard anyone on Lemmy say Trump isn't worse for the US.

This is from June 2020.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he is planning to effectively annex parts of the occupied West Bank in what would be a major - and highly controversial - act.

This is from July 2023.

Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank

A quiet bureaucratic maneuver by Netanyahu’s government has begun transferring control over the occupied territory from military to civilian leadership—violating international law.

Here's an entire wiki page about all they've been doing in the West Bank since 1967.

This is nothing new, it's just a next step that would have been taken regardless.

This is from June 2020.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he is planning to effectively annex parts of the occupied West Bank in what would be a major - and highly controversial - act.

This is from July 2023.

Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank

A quiet bureaucratic maneuver by Netanyahu’s government has begun transferring control over the occupied territory from military to civilian leadership—violating international law.

Here's an entire wiki page about all they've been doing in the West Bank since 1967.

If you think this is new and is only happening because of Trump, you haven't been paying attention and are falling for propaganda.

I don't do it, but I'd like to. The few times I tried it I quite enjoyed it, it's just hard to find a place near me where I can practice archery. It's quite fun, I think.

There are more articles out there reporting on the same thing. Just because it might not fit your preconceived notions, or the narrative that you have already decided on, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Here, for example, if you scroll down:

We've just heard from two people from Britain's Jewish community who attended the football match in Amsterdam.

(...)

“We got to one of the central areas and we saw mopeds turn up and some guys started beating an Israeli guy going back to his hotel," he says, adding they were referring to his religion and stomping on his head.

(...)

“Shortly after, the same men that had attacked the Israeli came up to us right into our personal space, saying are you Jewish? We said no, we are British," he says.

(...)

"They were looking for Jews not just Israelis," he says.

This coming from British men, as reported by the BBC. BBC also release this article a couple of day ago; do you think they are just running propaganda for Israel?

Just because Israel is committing genocide in Palestine, you don't have to condone or try to downplay this type of behavior. You can support Palestine and still acknowledge that this behavior was grounded in antisemitism. Or do you find it unlikely that in central Europe, and with the rise of the far right, there are Nazis and other antisemites? Not to mention football hooligans are usually quite right wing.

Cartoon violence inflicted on a rude person displayed in a comic strip has somehow started a war about "incels" and "toxic masculinity"; meanwhile, I've never watched Sesame Street and I was over here thinking Big Bird was a girl.

Well, Jan 6 happened after the 2020 elections, and Trump has got nuttier and more openly extreme. His rallies and speeches this year leading up to the elections have been on a different level. I though more republications would be rethinking their choice to back him at this point, enough that Kamala could win despite a poor performance. Unfortunately, I was very wrong about that.

Fair enough, nice gotcha, it still doesn't change anything that I said.

Also, I forgot to add it to the other comment, and then I was just going to leave it out, but now I'm here again, so:

Yes it’s a start. What do you expect? The entire power grid and entire vehicle fleet to be redone in 2 years? Things take time

Fuck your "things take time", especially in a country that is both one of the richest and most polluting countries per capita in the world. A bunch of the world is becoming uninhabitable, storms become more frequent, some places are having a harder and harder time growing food, panama had to relocate people who lived on an island due to rising sea levels, and things are going to get exponentially worse, but "things take time guys, we can't rush it!"

Let me ask you this: are you vegan, avoid using plastic as much as possible, use public transport/walk/bike whenever possible, try to minimize your consumption as much as possible, try to buy locally, and overall do you just try to ethically consume? Or are you one of those "it's the government and corporations who have to do something"? Because you certainly can't be the second and then, when talking about one of the richest and most polluting countries in the world, say we need to take things slow.

You think that green energy isn’t left? Debt relief isn’t left? What planet are you on? Do I have to say left [of center]? Jeez.

No, it's not left. I've already explained to you why. If I then drive a monster truck everywhere and eat steak for every meal, but then I install a solar panel in my house, does that make me an environmentalist?

This election shows that Gaza didn’t matter one iota. Ukraine didn’t matter one bit. They didn’t even register, no one cared. Even your own human rights didn’t matter. It came down to inflation, housing, and further on the right xenophobia. Clinton was right “It’s the economy, stupid”.

Jesus, I really do honestly try not to be rude, but the amount of stupidity in one paragraph mixed with the arrogance is off the damn charts. Firstly, Hillary, the person you're quoting, lost the fucking election; secondly, neither candidate in this election was against selling weapons to Israel, both of them together had less than 50% of American citizens voting for them, and one of them - the one that has the largest overlap with pro-Palestine voters - lost the popular vote to the Republicans, which hadn't happened to Democrats since 2004, and your conclusion is "Gaza didn't matter and here's another Dem loser's take on it!". Careful that you don't get hemorrhoids with how hard you're shitting these takes out.

I did not say “so far left”. Do a ctrl+f and you won’t find those words. I said: “If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FDA, etc”.

Yeah, which implies those are very leftist measures and policies. Would you say "if the leftists don't show up to support racial segregation (...)" - no you fucking wouldn't, cuz it's obviously not a fucking leftist measure, is it? And neither are those, they are measures even most centrists agree with.

guess what fucking direction the Dems are going to sprint to? Yeah the Dems are going to sprint to the center. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.

They'll sprint to the center because that's historically what they always do, in this and other elections, and in other countries as well - refuse to compromise with the left, appeal to center and center right, and then blame the left when they lose. This isn't news for me and plenty of other people budy, we predicted this might happen and what the reaction would be - the only thing I didn't predict is that so many people would still support Trump - but plenty of people literally saw the writing on the wall about the support for Kamala and called attention to it, but the democrats don't want to accept reality, just as they didn't accept it in 2016.

the reality, as indicated by this election,

The reality indicated by this election is that less than 50% of Americans voted for either Kamala or Trump, and after Kamala had immense support and raised $1 Billion after replacing Biden, she attached to Biden, courted the center-right, and ended up losing the election.

Everything you said has nothing to do with the left, they are basic as shit things that event center and center-right European parties would do. I mean, what does the sentence "did green energy" even mean to you? The US is one of the largest polluters per capita in the world, installing a few solar panels means jack shit. Starting to heavily invest in public transportation, putting forth serious proposals to reduce the use of plastic, etc. would just be a start.

Meanwhile, they were also running on an anti-migration platform, just not as bad as Trump - remember how Democrats were so proud of the fact Trump shot down a Dem proposal that would reduce immigration?

Also, remember when Obama was elected on an anti-war policy in 2008? He even won a Nobel Peace Prize! And remember how Trump was elected in 2016 on a "pull back troops from the Middle East policy", standing opposite to "Hillary the Hawk"?

Meanwhile, while most of the world condemns Israels actions, and millions of people in the US protest the US involvement in the ongoing genocide, both candidates are in favor of supporting and giving weapons to Israel.

If your argument is "but Biden was so far left", then you're a perfect representation of what is wrong with the Dem party and the US in general.

Edit: I almost forgot this beautiful (\s) fucking cherry on top: Dick fucking Cheney endorsed the Dems. And you seriously wanna make the argument they couldn't have gone more left?