Software companies usually form as worker coops directly rather than using an ESOP mechanim

Here is a list worker coops: https://www.usworker.coop/directory/

There are some software companies in there under technology

Worker coops can delegate decision-making to managers and executives. This can ensure speedy decision-making. Having workers control the firm doesn't mean that every decision must be made by referendum. There can be delegation and more representative democracy

@politicalmemes

The link argues that uber drivers are employees.

The no employee factory as described sounds fine. Ellerman's philosophy doesn't just imply a worker coop mandate. Since natural resources aren't the fruits of anyone's labor and the equal claim to them of future generations, we should apply common ownership arrangements to land and natural resources and artificial monopolies.

Neo-abolition doesn't solve every problem.

Social ownership of capital is orthogonal policy issue

@latestagecapitalism

Liberalism refers to both a coherent political philosophy and a historical political tendency. The former liberalism is anti-capitalist. Yes many historical liberals were pro-capitalism, but this position makes their liberalism incoherent.

Private property rests on the principle that workers have an inalienable right to appropriate the positive and negative fruits of their labor. Capitalism violates this norm. Locke was wrong

A market economy of worker coops isn't socialism

@politicalmemes

There are anti-capitalist liberals though

@politicalmemes

At its core, liberalism is fairly anti-capitalist. There are many arguments against capitalism from liberal principles such as the principle that legal and de facto responsibility should match. The workers in the firm are jointly de facto responsible for using up inputs to produce outputs, but receive 0% claim on the positive and negative production while the employer solely appropriates 100% of the positive and negative result of production

@politicalmemes

It gets even more confusing when you consider anti-capitalist classical liberals

https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Classical-Liberal-JurisprudenceJune2018.pdf

@politicalmemes

https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100

@politicalmemes

Worker cooperatives don't have to have a flat structure. Smaller cooperatives might use a flat structure, but larger companies will delegate business decisions to management. The main difference is that the board of directors represent the workers instead of outside shareholders making it democratic

@politicalmemes

There are legal tests to test whether a worker is an independent contractor or an employee such as the control test. You shouldn't be able to declare a de facto employee as a de jure independent contractor. The factory with only independent contractors wouldn't be able to exercise the same managerial authority over the workers as if they were employees. If these contractors cooperate directly, they are almost certainly in a de facto worker coop.

https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/UsingESOPsInPlatformCompanies.pdf

@latestagecapitalism

There are legal and theoretical tests to determine whether a worker is an independent contractor or an employee such as the control test. You shouldn't be able to declare a de facto employee as a de jure independent contractor. The factory with only independent contractors wouldn't be able to exercise the same managerial authority over the workers as if they were employees. If these contractors cooperate directly, they are almost certainly in a de facto worker coop.
See: https://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/UsingESOPsInPlatformCompanies.pdf

This talk focuses on putting forward the argument against the current system. Ellerman describes economic democracy in detail in other work.
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All firms would be mandated to worker coops. All worker would automatically gain voting rights over the firm by working in the firm. All the firm's workers are voting members

The plumber sells the faucet to you as part of the contract they make with you.

Independent contractors are legally and theoretically distinct from employees

@latestagecapitalism

Rent control is bad policy

https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/113/446/087/286/939/418/original/cd5415118403b574.png

@theonion

The coin flip is inherently part of policy, and it is bad policy to decide on policies with a coin flip

Inalienable rights are moral rights that can't be given up or transferred. It doesn't mean that the legal system can't fail to enforce the right such as by legally treating it as alienable like capitalism does in the employment contract. If the legal system doesn't grant it, that's a bad legal system.

Moral concepts have an objective sense that is unknowable.

@politicalmemes

You can't get good policy without democracy because democracy is part of all good policy. Non-democracy violates inalienable rights, which makes it inherently bad policy

@politicalmemes

How can this be a rejection of the far left when Harris campaigned as a moderate (e.g. Cheney)? If republican voters are going to think Democrats are communist regardless of how moderate the Democrats are, maybe moderating isn't a good strategy. If the only choice is between right-wing and lite right-wing, right-wing voters will choose the real thing. Even then, Trumpists will still call democrats communists.

Many left polices are popular when they aren't labelled as left

@theonion

2/2

If a worker voluntarily commits a crime for their employer, that is still inalienably their decision. Yes, the employer told them to do it, and that gave them a reason to do it, but having a reason doesn't absolve them of guilt or responsibility for their actions

@technology

1/2

A group of people is de facto responsible for a result if it is a purposeful result of their intentional joint actions. The pure application of the norm that legal and de facto responsibility match is to deliberate actions. The workers joint actions that use up inputs to produce outputs are planned and deliberate. They meet the criteria for being premeditated. The workers are not under duress in normal work, and consent to the employer-employee contract.

@technology

I'm not a socialist because I think markets are useful and haven't seen a planned economy proposal that seemed plausible. Worker co-ops and unions aren't socialism in 20th century sense because they are technically compatible with markets and private property.

An economic democracy is a market economy where all firms are worker co-ops, so I was speaking about managers in a worker co-op

@technology

I did my part in trying to elect Harris.

What is the point in moderating if even after moderating Democrats are perceived as too left-wing?

@politicalmemes

*Perceived* leftward shift. The Democrats aren't that left wing in the first place. If democrats are going to be perceived as too left wing regardless of reality, they might as well take on some left-wing policies, so they can at least bribe voters with stuff that obviously and immediately makes things better for them like UBI.

If you're suggesting throw LGBTQ people under the bus, that is just wrong. What would we be fighting for at that point?

@politicalmemes