Touchscreens Are Out, and Tactile Controls Are Back

What about extreme violations of privacy? Let me know when that is "out", too.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/

It's in the works.
- Yeah, so the thing is, any amount of trust that I had has already been completely destroyed. "We don't do it anymore because it's illegal, trust me bro" isn't going to cut it. Does the bill include mandatory prison time for executives for violations, or just cost-of-doing-business fines? Will this be enforced by a government regulatory body that is not literally outnumbered 20:1 by car manufacturer lawyers?
  
  If the car has any kind of network capabilities and 100% of the car's software is not open source, I'm not buying it. Period.
  
  This bill would not need to exist if cars were FOSS, or if cars were non-networked. Those are the only 2 solutions that I will accept. This bill is worthless to me.
something, something, open source car.
- Some nerd running Gentoo on his car. Has to recompile everything every time he has an oil change.
Hahaha, that's cute.

Touchscreens were never popular with customers. Manufacturers kept cramming touchscreens in cars and using them to control everything becuase they were being stupid with new tech.

Edit: I guess I should have been clearer. I was talking about as a replacement for tactile controlls in a car like the article is talking about. Reverse cameras and other things that are good to have a touch screen for make perfect sense but using your touch screen to control your Air conditioning in a way that you have to divert your attention from the road to operate sliders and buttons on a touch screen is dumb as hell.

Also the fact that touch screens are cheaper to build with how expensive battery tech has been in electric cars.
- Cheaper to build and can be adjusted and patched as you go
Touchscreens are great to have, controlling Android Auto or Apple Carplay with physical buttons like you have to do in a Mazda is a nightmare.

The problem is when the touchscreen is used as a replacement for physical controls, instead of an addition. Stuff like controlling your climate control should not be exclusively controlled through the touchscreen

And don't even get me started about VWs stupid decision to put touch controls on the steering wheel. At least they backpedaled on that decision pretty quickly
- My wife and I drive almost the same model of Audi, separated by a couple of years. One still has physical buttons for infotainment and one has a touch screen, but both support Android Auto and CarPlay.
  
  I prefer the physical controls for it, because I can glance at the screen and know "turn right two clicks and press down" to get where I want, and then look back at the road while I do it.
I love my touchscreen, it’s great for media control, map, etc.

Mind you that is all it does, every other feature is behind a physical button. Which I also love.

Touchscreen for some things, physical for the rest.
In my 2021 Seat Leon the controls for defogging the windscreen and the heated rear window (both essential in Sweden) are placed on a cluster of touch buttons below and to the left of the steering wheel.

It is insane, you have to take you eyes off the road and lean forward to press them.

Also, to activate the seat heater, you need to access the climate panel on the infotainment, so you loose the view of any CarPlay navigation.

The car has dedicated touch surfaces to change the AC temp, but the main ones are next to the power button touch area for the infotainment, and none of the areas are illuminated.

I like my car, it is fun and comfortable, but the overreliance of touch controls is infuriating at times.
Touchscreens are cheaper UI part too. It saved money and "looked cool"... Win-win for shareholders
Touch screens also seem like they would be easier to integrate with subscription services. Auto manufacturers are looking to make things like heated seats a subscription.

Cars have been getting steadily worse. There doesn’t seem to be any enforcement of recalls (has anyone satisfactorily had the Honda Civic 2016-2021 air conditioning resolved? How much did you spend?)

If they can take cars away from us entirely, and move to us renting self driving cars, that’s what they would really want to do. Pay for your radio, pay for heat and AC…
A screen is legally required for the backup camera in the US since 2016.

Can we address headlights that are brighter than the sun now?

my issue isn't really with the brightness, it's the height. Don't get me wrong bright headlights are annoying as fuck, but a huge ass truck behind me with their headlights literally higher than my back window is insane.
- My point exactly. The brightness is great, when it works in your favor. But when a modern car sits at such a height, where the low-beams shine directly over the top of my car, it's obnoxious
- I don't know the white point on some of the LED headlights is extremely taxing to look at at night.
- My car has adjustable headlight height and I love it. I put em all the way down because they’re stupid bright.
I hope European-style adaptive headlights become the norm in the USA eventually. Some higher-end cars have a matrix of LEDs instead of one bulb per headlight, and they can programmatically dim just some of the LEDs. If you have your headlights on but there's a car in front of you (or on the other side of the road, whatever), the high beam will dim just the area the car is in. This happens automatically while you're driving.

This is an option in some European vehicles (or may be standard on high end ones) but they have to explicitly disable the feature when exporting to the USA.

The USA did approve something relating to this, but it must not be sufficient since the European manufacturers are still disabling the feature in the USA.
- From personal experience in Europe, I can tell you that it sounds great in theory, but it's horrible in practise. I get routinely blinded by headlights here and I feel like it has only gotten worse with the advent of LED headlights.
- Interesting, I have those on my car and I actively avoid using them.
  
  It can't cope with anything more than a simple scenario (dim around car in front, deal with on coming car in other lane). If you also have pedestrians and vehicles on side junctions, then you burn their eyes.
  
  So, I'd assumed it was a US feature (straight, wide roads) brought over here
SHUT UP ABOUT THE SUN
- Damn, why'd you have to bring up the sun again?
That and buttons that are almost as flat as touchscreens.

I want my clickety-click Fallout and Star Wars rugged industrial feeling.
Its worse in the rain and even worse still in the snow.
- And for some reason my state still doesn't have properly reflecting paint, so everyone drives with their high-beams on because otherwise you can't see the lanes. The net result is that nobody can see anything because they're constantly being blinded by oncoming traffic.
  
  It sucks all the way down...
Never had an issue with them but then I live in Europe, where auto-adjusting/adaptive lights aren't just legal it's a requirement if you want to make the headlights permanent high-beams.
- I wish adaptive lights were legal in the USA. Manufacturers like BMW have to disable the feature at the factory because their implementation isn't approved for usage in the USA.

They are more safe since people can feel the buttons without taking their eyes off of the road. I don't understand why they thought it was a good idea to use touchscreens.

It had nothing to do with being a good idea. It was just the more profitable idea. Tactile controls cost more to install than a cheap touchscreen with a dogshit GUI. Bonus being you have a proprietary part, the consumer can't easily swap out later if they want. So you've baked in some nice obsolescence to boot.

Ain't capitalism great? Race to the bottom.
- Tactile controls cost more to install
  
  Not just more to install, but also more to design. Physical controls have to be designed so they fit the aesthetic of the car and don't look out of place. On the other hand, a touch screen can just reuse a generic UI design across every vehicle made by a particular manufacturer, or even across different manufacturers if the same vendor supplies the same OS for all of them.
- In my lurking time here, I have seen many comments on Lemmy that criticize capitalism, but I think it's not as bad as it is made out to be on here. I earn money by working, can spend my money on what I want, and can start a business if I wanted to. The best businesses are rewarded with more money while poor businesses fail. I don't see anything wrong with that. Admittedly, it is possible that I am wrong because I have never studied economy other than the short lessons from required college classes my first two years. Do you have any objective sources where I can start to learn? I tend to be liberal/Democrat, btw.
That's true.

With a T9 phone, I used to be able to send a complete text message without ever taking my eyes off the road.

Now that I've got a touchscreen I'm swerving all over the place every time I try to text. It's way less safe.
One word. Tesla.

It became the Apple of automobiles and everyone was rushing to copy them. Then came the fall of Elon and everyone is realizing how full of shit the company is.
Cheap tech that looks expensive, that is why we have touch screens. Also harder to repair for the customer to do. A physcial button is easy to replace and quick.
There's a kind of people who think they don't need to know an industry to know where it's heading and where the progress is.

Mobile computers being thinner and replacing buttons with touchscreens are from that kind of delusions.

Now built-in chatbots with voice recognition and synthesis are all the rage. If you remember that "elevator in Scotland" sketch.
- Ullluvunn!

Also, bring back gauges, instead of idiot-lights. It's nice to know when a problem is beginning (overheating, etc) before it becomes a crisis when you have no choice but to pull over.

Yeah I hate it when information is hidden in the name of minimalism. I'd rather have a plane cockpit UI than a bicycle UI, even if it means I feel like an idiot at various points when I discover new things I could have been doing the whole time.
- The feeling like an idiot is how people learn.
- My hybrid dash is anything but minimal. I have a zillion selections to show me a slew of random things. None of them are an engine temperature reading. So frustrating.
I recently learned that in my car the same light is used to indicate that the parking brake is on and that the brake fluid is low. Nothing bad happened, and it's getting worked on, but my first thought was that the sensor on the brake must be broken. It's poor design, seemingly without reason.

I'm so glad I kept my car and weathered through this shitty phase of car manufacturing.

If only there was hope for weathering through the data collection, subscription-based features and the death of sedans though...

I asked a dealer for a dumb-car. No fucking auto 911 dialing, bluetooth enabled, GPS service horseshit, just a normal car and he shot me
- I think you want a 2007 Toyota Corolla lol
  
  I've currently got a 2012 Mazda 3 but swapped the radio for one that supports Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. No other fancy features.
- https://www.craigslist.org/about/best/hou/6565526716.html
Well, there are some strategies:

data collection - remove/disable the antenna/broadcasting chip - in some cars it's as easy as removing a fuse, in others you need to take things apart to remove the TCU or modem

subscription-based features - don't buy them and look for hacks to enabled them w/o buying

death of sedans - buy sedans

Unfortunately, that's a drop in the bucket since it seems the market in general wants larger cars with more spyware, and aren't pushing back enough on subscription BS.

I'm actively looking for a car, and unfortunately the process is:

find models we want to try out

look up online about how to disable the spyware nonsense

actually go look at cars

repeat from 1 as necessary

play dealership games because the private used market is essentially gone

actually remove spyware

We're on step 3, and I'm not looking forward to step 5. I've actually never purchased from a dealer before, because I've bought everything before now from a private seller. Wish me luck...
- Can I suggest auction sites for used cars. Government is always getting rid of old cars.
Get any Infiniti with a 3g antenna. The network doesn’t exist anymore so it can’t phone home.

Yay, I never left having physical controls for things like HVAC controls and volume.

Touchscreens are great for context-sensitive controls, but less so for things that should be accessible at all times and usable without looking.

Touchscreens can stay, but only for non-essential tasks like changing settings or entering addresses. Climate, media, and all other controls you usually use while driving should be tactile by mandate.

Here's my rule: Anything in my Chevy S10 that you control by turning a knob, moving a lever, or momentarily push a button? That needs to be a physical control in a car. Anything where you push and hold a button, or mash a button multiple times (like setting the clock or turning off the DRLs respectively) can be moved to a settings menu in a touch screen. These things shouldn't be done while moving.

And no, touch sensitive single-function panels like the climate controls in my father's Avalon are not good enough, it needs to be a mechanical control that you can feel for without activating.

But we've still got a good 10 years of avoiding used cars. This era is literally landfill.

10 years and counting

There's so much bullshit in new cars that's it's infuriating, especially considering the cars call home with all kinds of privacy violating bullshit.
Never mind that even 3-5 years down the line, some of these systems will fail to connect/ pair with the latest gadget in your pocket.

Back in the 80s, Don Norman popularized the term affordance. Humans need something to push, pull, turn or otherwise interact with. We are physical beings in a physical world.

Driving vehicles is potentially life-endangering. Just because the technology is there and cheaper does not mean that humans can push aside their physiological limitations in a critical situation.

Take the emergency blinker. You know where it is, you see it all the time - it's right there in front of you! But when a real emergency happens, you'll be fumbling for the button, concentrating on the situation at hand. Now imagine that button on a touchscreen.

I've noticed this with modern standards. They just don't have the same experience because nothing is actually linked. It's all electronic. I miss the feeling of the linkage as I moved through the gears. Feeling the disc touch as you let out the clutch. There was a magic to that. Now it has the feeling of setting on your hand for too long.
- This always happens, with change you have things you don't need and things you need, and things you consider and things you don't consider, and things you had and things you will have. Of these there's a combination of things you had, you need and you don't consider. Which means you will not have them, while needing them and not considering them.
  
  Correct good feedback is in that area.
- I can't imagine driving a stick like that. If it's all electronic why bother with being standard as well?
The term is «affordance»
- Thanks. Damn autocorrect.
I use my four way hazard lights when there's heavy braking on the freeway to make sure people behind me are paying attention. It's a button on my dash and pretty easy to toggle.

Though is that something that touch screen cars really put into the touch screen!?
- I don't think I've seen a car with the hazard lights button on the touch screen... Even the Teslas have a physical button for it. I imagine this must be a legal requirement, at least in some countries.
I don't know Don, I'm sure he's a fine guy, but I've read about all these kinds of rules (EDIT: emerging) much earlier - as early as 1940s, with airplanes and cars and other machines in production and in front lines that people had to operate for long hours under strain and make as few mistakes as possible.

Even USSR, not the Rome of ergonomics, had GOSTs for average ratio of errors an operator makes on a certain machine, machines had to be inside those numbers in tests involving people, or they wouldn't get adopted into wide usage.

Note how the criterion is defined. Not formalities like the shape of something or the layout conforming to some vague definition, but the results of an actual test on people. Of course, though, there were also a myriad GOSTs as to how the specific controls may look, a GOST for every detail one could use in a device.
Just because the technology is there and cheaper does not mean that humans can push aside their physiological limitations in a critical situation.

Have you considered the shareholders though?

Yes please.

I don't know how much longer my button & dialled up 2012 shitbox is going to last. Being able to buy new without the crap is something to look forward to.

Then again, there's the whole 'car phones home/connected services' thing to consider as well. I like my car safe, but dumb as rocks otherwise.

The other day I saw a mid-90s shitbox in the parking lot and it made me so hopeful for my 2008 car. Like, that's a sign my car has at least 10 more years in it.
- With good climate (not a rust belt) and being fortunate enough to not blow an engine, it should do well with diligent maintenance.
  
  Mostly why mine still goes. The bodywork is utter crap - full of scratches, dings, dents and the front end looks like someone dropped a running belt sander on it. Ex write-off. Mechanically though it is sound.
  
  My worry is the timing chain. Chains last longer than belts, but they are a dog to change and generally not worth the labour. It will be that or a crash that sends it to the great scrappy in the sky.
  
  Mid-90s a bit too early for me. I am fond of ABS (mandatory here since '04) and airbags ('98) at the very least. Not always a guarantee on cars of that era. Love the looks though.
  
  Best of luck with your teenager.
I like my car safe, but dumb as rocks otherwise.

I always find that funny. I got my first car with radars and auto adjusting cruise control and so on and it's much safer than the 2 years older Jetta I was driving before. If I'm distracted it warns me if there's something on the road, it warns me if I act tired (swaying and going over the lines), if cruise is on it automatically slows down if the car in front of me slows down without braking...

You're like people complaining about ABS in the motorcycle world even though it brakes faster than the majority of riders in conditions where it turns on...
- I think they’re talking about subscriptions to use features that are already on the car. Connected services like remote start as a service can eat shit.
- Safety systems are just fine.
  
  ABS, lane deviation warnings, automatic braking and the like all actively prevent accidents - without being an annoyance to the driver, if implemented well. That tech is mature now and generally ok across the board.
  
  I dislike all kinds of cruise and attempts at self driving though. More of a personal preference, but I think it makes the driver cede too much of their control to the vehicle - allowing them to become more easily distracted and less able to notice incoming hazards that the vehicle might not.
- I don't want my car sending any data out to anywhere, that's all. And all those features should be able to be manually disabled, because I personally am not a distracted or tired/drunk driver so I don't need any of that stuff.

Should be illegal to have touchscreen controls in a car, it requires you to look at it to effectively control it, which means the car forces you to ignore the road to do anything.

God I hope so

Finally. Are they actually hiring decent UX folks this time or are they using the people who designed 1980s VCR programming UIs again?

You mean like the 1985 Subaru XT Coupe? God I love that cassette futurism look!
- Steering wheel looks like a gun which fits since it'll probably kill you
- Some of the most zany quirks and features of any car!
- Funny part is it looks sci-fi to me.
did 80s VCRs even have OSD? we went from a top loading National to a hi-fi so basically skipped the 80s. and 90s VRC UX would be perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned.
- They mostly didn't have OSDs, they instead had indecipherable 7-segment and some fixed elements like 'Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa', with 2 or 3 buttons. The younger Gen-X/older Millennials got their reputation as 'whiz kids' in part by handling those interfaces on behalf of their mystified parents.
80s and early 90s designed the best dashboards. Change my mind mf.

Plotnick, an associate professor of cinema and media studies at Indiana University in Bloomington, is the leading expert on buttons and how people interact with them.

I like that being a leading expert on buttons is a profession that exists in this world. You go Rachel Plotnick.

Leading expert on buttons says to use buttons?

Mild shock

Seriously though they are needed for many features especially cars or eyes away
- Leading expert on buttons says to use buttons?
  
  It's exactly what Big Button wants you to think!!! Wake up sheeple!!!!!1!1!11
I’m just shocked that’s a cinema and media studies professor. I’d’ve expected human factors engineering or psychology, especially at such a psych school
- Professors don't always teach in their actual area of expertise. I had a German language professor whose PhD was in Philosophy and activity published in that field, in English, German and French journals. It does seem like an odd combination, but probably not a lot of students signing up for a class in usability of buttons, even from the fields you would expect to study them .

Cool, now bring back single cab light trucks with full length beds.

Id settle just for a truck that isnt very clearly pandering "im a big boy!" energy. There all way too fucking big for no god damn reason other than validation of ego. Bunch of weak fucking man babies need some million ton 3 lane wide truck just so they can pretend theyre a big strong man to themselves and everyone else, despite never using the truck for what its purpose is supposed to be.
- YES! Where is my dad's little Toyota Pickup? Closest thing we have is the Ford Maverick, which is still pretty fucking huge.
- I have heard that the reason for this is that trucks in that size range are less regulated by the EPA. Companies didn't want to put in the research to develop trucks that met emissions standards, so they just make them really heavy for no purpose, evading regulations. Take this with a grain of salt, because I've done zero research of my own on it.
- Maybe a Ford Maverick or a Honda Ridgeline. The other trucks are just unreasonable. $80K for a Tundra, or $60K for a Tacoma? WTF!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax?wprov=sfla1
RIGHT?? I want an 8-foot bed, dammit!

When I’m driving, it’s actually unsafe for my car to be operated in that way. It’s hard to generalize and say, buttons are always easy and good, and touchscreens are difficult and bad, or vice versa. Buttons tend to offer you a really limited range of possibilities in terms of what you can do. Maybe that simplicity of limiting our field of choices offers more safety in certain situations.

Or maybe being able to consistently and reliably operate the thing without taking your eyes off the road has something to do with it? Hmm... Yes, this is really hard to generalize.

When I’m driving, it’s actually unsafe for my car to be operated in that way

being able to consistently and reliably operate the thing without taking your eyes off the road

Considering they'd just spent the previous few questions discussing the visual-first aspect of touchscreens and accessibility issues for the visually impaired, I think that's exactly what they were talking about.

The generalizations are about completely different devices. They talk about CT machines & automatic defibrillators later.

I just want a coffee table book with pictures of these stupid executive's faces who approved the original all touchscreen versions that were becoming ubiquitous.

You could make money from that. Trace the execs, get nice shiny photos to the tech, write some good copy, and publish "The Encyclopaedia of garbage tech" so that people in the future can ridicule and possibly learn from their stupidity.
- Trace the execs
  
  Importantly you need to trace the execs who copied it, not the ones who decided to try it the first time. Giving things a try and not immediately throwing it away when it isn’t perfect is a good thing and behavior that needs to be encouraged. The problem is when others start copying it blindly because it is new before it could demonstrate benefits. It’s the people jumping on hype that are the problem, not the people giving new things a try, even if they may fail.
Having worked with people in that industry they don't care. They always just want to shake things up then move to next thing to say they did something at their old job. Then forget all about it once they did the next thing.
Thank Tesla.
The book cover would be a photo of Musk 😆
- Plenty of responsibility for elmo, but don't remove shared blame from the many layers of individual greedy cowards beyond that who used this as convenient cover to approve changes in their own org's designs. Anything to make their extra pennies and not pass any of those savings on to the consumer (also so much easier to enable subscription car features, can't make a physical button disappear over the air)
woody_harrelson_wiping_tears_with_cash.jpg

Touch screens are cheaper, that's why they did it.
I want to see some videos of salesmen trying to sell touchscreens like they are cars of the future and so great. Followed by the same salesman selling the return to tactile buttons as a big step forward because of how bad of an idea the touchscreens are.

Most likely the first one will be older, but I bet there's many that could be lead to do both in the same day by two different people showing interest in the same model but different year of a vehicle.

No I wouldn't say touchscreens are out, I would say augmenting them with physical buttons is about to get popular.

Touch screens are shit tor buttons. They can be hacked. They can be unresponsive.

There's a load of other reasons, but either or both are enough to realise that a physical button is much safer. Perfect example of safety being lost in technology. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

The worst is all the ones that cheaped out and put a resistive touchscreen. Making it 10 times worse.
And they dont work with gloves when it's cold.

Fucking finally.

Now make cars look like cars again. Last 30 years has been a parade of Jellybeans and Electric Shavers.

What I care more about is making cars... cars. Visit a dealership in the US and it's 98% SUV/Truck and 2% sedans.
- I just want cheap economy shitboxes back. User serviceable ones. Without an extra half ton of plastic and unnecessary electronics. Bring back wind up windows and normal radios. Vinyl seats. Hell, bench seats. Wind up windows.
- Most "SUVs" are actually crossovers. Which are just hatchbacks, wagons, and non-sliding door minivans. Take an Impreza hatchback and lift it 3 inches, and suddenly it's an "SUV."
  
  But yeah, sedans w/trunks are becoming a bit of a rarity.
Modern cars are designed in wind tunnels. We'll never get the cool designs back.
- We still have Hummers. Aerodynamics isn't everything.
- We had efficiency answered decades ago during the 70s fuel shortage. Big oil didn't want to normalize cars like the Vega, Moodymobile, VW Rabbit, later the Geo Metro. They wanted us to burn more oil not less. And that hasn't changed. Cars don't need to be designed in wind tunnels.

THANK JESUS H. VISHNU.

About fucking time.

Thank god! Touch screens on the stuff in cars are a huge pain in the ass if you have hands as big as mine and the icons are all tiny

It's not that the icons are tiny, rather people driving usually operate by touch because their eyes need to be on the road.
- I'm a pretty tall guy, my hands are big

But on the other hand, people seem to have a hunger for physical buttons, both because you don’t always have to look at them—you can feel your way around for them when you don’t want to directly pay attention to them—but also because they offer a greater range of tactility and feedback.

If you look at gamers playing video games, they want to push a lot of buttons on those controls.

She talks a bit… weird?

Sounds like exactly the right way to talk about physical buttons to me.
they want to push a lot of buttons on those controls

LOL

Even with a lot of buttons available, good videogame controls are simple and narrow. Natural combinations add depth without overcomplicating things.

thank fuck

All cars should function like a cockpit- each function has its own independent metal toggle switch that goes 'KAK when switched. I will fight you on this. We need someone to make an interior that does this; sells well, and then the golden age of independent buttons shall return!

each function has its own independent metal toggle switch

one steering wheel to steer left, and one to steer to the right
- What if I flip both at once?
- Seems similar to some tanks.
  
  I haven't driven a tank.
I want switches on the headliner so I feel like a pilot
Yes, and we also need that for personal computers.

I mean, monochrome easy on the eyes displays being all you need to normally use it. All the fancy stuff on a separate hires color display that may even not be there.

We will have proper computing in our age.

Returning proper controls for most things is just the first step.
I drive a '91 Jeep Cherokee and it has a wattered down version of this, I have never felt more powerful turning on the rear wiper.

The answer is tactile buttons with displays behind them. Not sure why nobody is doing this in cars...

Because they are expensive. More importantly, how often does the function of a button is changed? Top right corner button on android is usually a back button (arrow/ x) or a profile icon. How often does a bottom navigation in an app change? Dashboard is an app that rarely changes.

I will do you one better. The screen in the button goes out. If the button changes the display based on the context, what does the button do? Is software responsible to recognize it cannot display an action and do something? What does it do? Should the user be responsible to remember what does the button do based on the context? This article is about return to physical buttons because they are reliable. Do you see any button on your cars dashboard that is unlabeled? Do you remember looking up in a manual what a weirdly iconed button does? On any piece of hardware.

This is from users perspecrtive alone.

Lets do the manufacturer. Imagine that screen buttons have SKUs. Dashboards have SKUs. Screen buttons have versioned drivers. Screen buttons need power delivery. Data lanes on pcbs. And fuck else.

Now imagine that you have a physical button. It costs cents. It closes one lane. Maybe needs power for a led.

Who the fuck wants screen buttons?

Finally. What the fuck multiple screen buttons solve that a single screen that can be any number of any buttons couldnt?

Because sure as fuck they wont solve for context, clarity and reliablity.
Because touch screens are cheap and put the onus of design onto the programmers of apps.
- I think we'll see multipurpose function buttons under the display, that change function programmatically depending on what the app is doing.

Fucking YES

except at rivian. they have stated future models will have an all touchscreen dashboard

Vote with your wallet.
- Vote with your 6 ton 4000 VDC truck mounted electromagnet
- always have for the most part
They can state all they want, if their clients don't pay for it they'd sell their firstborn son to get the numbers back up

While you're at it bring back the Amber, its such a perfect color for the dash

It looks nice but I'm sure they lean towards cool colors because they're better at keeping you awake.

How about just generic opensource communications via Ethernet rj45? Then you just plug in any screen/computer including raspberry pi so you can have whatever system you want.

Won’t someone please think of the shareholders?!!
Particularly given the trend of 'glue a tablet to the middle of the dashboard'. If you are going to do that anyway, bring up a modern successor to the DIN/Double DIN standard, where the mounting is standard and update to also include USB-C for standard power, audio, and data. Add some network profiles for standardized exchange of useful information (Car speedometer, car model, fuel/battery amount and efficiency profile, navigation information to drive dash/HUD, etc).
- That last but is almost NMEA 2000, which standardizes exactly that kind of information, but in boats. It's old enough that they based it on CANbus, but there are many repeater products to add IP devices (Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth) to the network.
  
  ETA: By which I mean to say, plenty of designs already exist in the marine market which could be used to bridge a car's CANbus to consumer devices, if they wanted to.
- And sarcastically speaking please oh please don't add functionality to the obd connector like the ability to self diagnose and display a full report for any mechanic to easily use without the need for special hardware. That would be awful to have.

Can we return to transparent cases for Consoles and Tech next? I've always thought a touchscreen in cars were pretty scary since you have to take your eyes off the road.

I love those limited edition consoles!

I wish Valve would release a clear shell steam deck!
- They had a limited edition that came with one.

They could go one step further and add braille support directly, it's just nudges. Tactile feeling is the only reason they are back.

Yes, I'm aware there are no blind drivers. The point is not having to look at your controls and doing so with something that already exists.

Braille isn't very good for quick discernment. It's much easier to put differently-shaped buttons together or put buttons into different places.
- Why not both? And blind people don't seem to think so. Either way, better than what's in the picture.

I've been around just long enough to suspect that this will be part of a cycle going back and forth between tactile controls and touchscreens.

That is, give it a decade and touchscreens will be the in-thing again. And another decade and someone will have the "fantastic new idea" of bringing tactile controls back.

And there'll be a combo breaker of some sort where a new technology comes along (probably no screens, or controls, only voice control) which a small few will absolutely love - due to sunk cost fallacy mostly - and no-one else will buy (compare: 3D TVs), and the cycle will begin again.

Bonus points for: 1) Manufacturers managing to have cycles out of step with others because the market forces aren't quite enough (people not having the money to buy new cars) to bring them all into line. 2) External factors like, say, the world ending, breaking the cycle.

The new cars have been coming out with voice commands also so you don’t have to look at the screen while driving. They even have a tactile button for it on the wheel.

Drivers will see this and say hell yeah

Now if only that were the case for phones. Blackberry keyboards were better than any shitty touch screen.

I'd have to disagree on that one
- Having a choice would be a good start. It's either 'Solid black brick A' or 'Solid black brick B' in the smartphone world.
- As is your prerogative to do so but as someone replying to you says just one competent keyboard option would be nice for those of use that hate typing on a touchscreen.
Having had one of the old Windows phones with a keyboard dumped on me at an old workplace, can confirm it's completely possible for a phone to have a keyboard and be a complete piece of shit.

A good phone with a good keyboard may have some use cases. If you do a lot of writing but not any more computing power or screen space than a phone has, plus you want to be doing that on the move, then yeah. For me, can shitpost on forums using my phone in my spare time, and dealing with on-call work issues - having multiple tabs of Jira and Slack open, for instance - just isn't really practical on a small screen.

If your job is very email-centric, then yeah, sure. Blackberry were very good for just having the stuff you need - email, vpn, 'corporate' office documents - in a form that worked.
- That is why I mentioned blackberry specifically, phones can have a keyboard and it not be better for sure, I have also used some crap ones. Blackberry however made amazing keyboards on their devices and the best phone I have owned was a keytwo which I used up until around 2 years ago when it died a death.
  
  I dont see why you have to have some email centric job or need a specific "use case" to want a better, more tactile typing experience. I work running industrial machines, I dont touch a computer or send any emails as part of my work but that doesnt mean that I dont want a phone with a decent keyboard. I still have to type messages on my phone, like I am doing right now and for me personally I think touchscreen is by far the inferior option when put next to a half decent keyboard. I dont need to be sending emails or working on documents or programming or what ever else to appreciate a better typing experience.
  
  I type every day on this shitty touch screen without those additional work needs or whatever.
  
  I realise that not everyone wants this and that is fine but the suggestion that because I dont work on my phone in that was so therefore dont need a physical keyboard is ludacris. I am in a niché of people who want this, I know that but that doesnt make my opinion any less valid in terms of my desire just to have the option of not typing on these hateful touch screens :)
There are only 2 software keyboards I've found where I didn't have to look at the screen as I typed. 8-Pen which took forever to type anything on and Minuum which hasn't updated in years, but you can pry from my cold dead hands.

I never used a BlackBerry, but I miss the slide out keyboard my first couple smartphones had.
- I haven't found a touchscreen / keyboard combination that really works as well as physical keys, it never can. I could write multiple paragraphs on my blackberry accurately without ever looking down at the screen.
  
  Combine that with keyboard shortcuts to open whatever app or use whatever function I liked made using a phone so much more streamlined, no opening the screen to see what apps are active and scrolling to the one you want or having to go to your list of apps and find what you need, just press the system button plus the assigned letter and I'm in the app I want.
I want my fucking buttons back. Not only easier to type on, but on-screen keyboards eat so much of the screen real estate. Give me a slide-out keyboard.
- Hell fucking yeh! I'd take slide out or keytwo form factor. Keytwo is the greatest modern phone I have owned!

About. Fucking. Time.

I just want to say that I think this is the dash from my old car a Toyota Yaris.

I miss you ole' buddy. I'm sorry you got rear ended and totaled. You were a great car.

My first car was a 2001 Yaris. Lovely car until the timing chain broke and destroyed all four cylinder heads at once!
- Four cylinder heads in a Yaris! That's a hell of an engine!
I'll pour one out for the Yaris.
You know there is still time to snatch up a fantastic Toyota GR Yaris and elevate your life!

Sick so I can just not get a touchscreen car I waited it out

Never liked them. Modern smartphone is convenient , but a keyboard would be nicer

I was pleasantly surprised when I sat in a modern Hyundai for the first time (Kona Electric SX2) and there were soooo many buttons. Yes, some things are still touch-controlled, but compared to what I was used to in a Volkswagen it was such a blessing

Porsche are kinda doing this with their modern cars (e.g. see the inside of the Macan EV). They have flat capacitive buttons, which are better than a touch screen, but still not as good as actual proper buttons.
That’s sounds like a rare edition model!
- No, just look at it, so many buttons. Physical levers for A/C temperature control. Physical buttons for the seating heater and for the seating fan. Physical butons for the window heaters in the winter. Physical buttons to switch between Radio, Map, Bluetooth. Physical buttons to switch radio stations. Physical volume knobs.
  
  Basically all your needs while driving have a physical button, the stuff where you REALLY need a touchscreen are those that you should never do while driving anyways.
  
  I would wish that the driving selector wheel could act as a knob like BMWs and Mercedes have, this would be the best of the best. But it still is pretty great compared to the selection in other modern cars.

Fuck yeah, I love tactical controls. There's just something nice about something physical you can feel and manipulate.

Like, not dying while trying to go through menus while driving

I prefer the tactile controls over the touchscreen. While you're at it, bring back manual transmissions too!

You know what I would really hate? Automatic diagnostics on my dashboard. Nah. Please make those as LED blinks where the mechanic has to supply his own LED, Jerry rigged to the obd connector. And make it so that only one guy in Minnesota has the manual. Every mechanic has to contact that guy. Then the mechanic has to interpret the LED Morse code manually. Oh yes this would be so useful. And to add a 3Ghz motherboard with only access to Apple music. Totally awesome. Make the display show a video of "all I want for Christmas is you" I'll certainly be making use of that.

I'm gonna buy a Garmin instinct because I realized I don't use 95% of my galaxy Watch's "smart" features.

Great! Now bring back phones with physical QWERTY keyboards.

I can appreciate that you want them available but I'd love not to be forced to have one. My fingers are too large for those tiny things.
- Yeah I've gotten pretty good with swipe typing
Why not just a case with a slide out Bluetooth keyboard in the back?
- Pair a full size Bluetooth keyboard to your phone
- That'd be cool, but compatibility is a huge issue. I've looked into buying one, and there's no model available for my device.

Finally!

I didn't have a car for a few years and the one I had was 2003 (with a slight stint from a similarly-aged car during a couple-month time I had to drive). I now have a car again and I HATE that my heat/air and such are all flat against the panel (not a touch screen, though). I literally can't adjust anything without looking in my current car. Thankfully, I avoid driving it whenever possible.

The article doesn’t mention which cars unfortunately

Especially EV car makers need to take note.

They need a professor to tell them what Liz Lemon did in one lunchtime https://youtu.be/vyZkHjgzGRM?t=83

I just hope they don’t go overboard one way or another. All touchscreen was too much but all buttons would be excessive too

The touch screen should be used for entertainment.
- Touch screen should have maintenance/status display and diagnostics and settings for things you'd take care of while the vehicle isn't moving. Like seat/mirror positioning presets, ride height, towing mode, etc.
- I disagree because you probably use the entertainment buttons more than anything. For instance, my wife's car has the volume control on the touchscreen, which is super annoying because it's something I like to manually adjust a lot.
  
  I honestly can't think of what I would prefer be touch screen...really it should just display on a touch screen so I can use it if I want, but everything should be controllable through physical buttons too.

Why not both?

Personally I'm excited for the Hyundai mobi system

Oh tahnk Satan

Honestly at this point just make a mobile app to control it.

Then you could drunk drive from the couch to pick up your friends!
- I meant the car's AC and sound system but okay.

No.

Out the way, boomers.

Are you able to drive? Do you understand the difference between tactile controls and touch screens?
- Morgan Freeman: “They did not.”

Hard disagree. Touch screens are more intuitive, can be updated to be made better, have the option for more controls, and don't take any more time with your eyes off the road.

Well with a touch screen you have to look at what you’re doing.

With physical buttons, you don’t have to since they have a shape.

Are you looking at your keyboard while typing on your computer? Now try not looking while typing on your phone 🤓
- When you're fumbling to find the right switch/knob by feel your focus is still not on driving. It is at best very marginally better, and probably worse because you now think you're still paying attention to driving even though you really aren't. It's still illegal to text while driving, even on an old phone with a physical keyboard, specifically for this reason.
- I have to look when adjusting physical buttons in my car, same as I have to look when adjusting things on the touch screen in my car. And I don't have to look at my phone keyboard while typing.
and don't take any more time with your eyes off the road.

Physical controls generally don't have to be looked at at all to reach common controls.
and don't take any more time with your eyes off the road.

Uh, yes, yes they do. Which is why buttons are superior there. It's all about usecase. Keep your touchscreen for things like the navi settings.