No Stupid Questions @lemmy.world Mediocre_Bard @lemmy.world 3mo ago

I feel like a flashbang went off in my head, so the only question that I can think of is, "What now?" (Details in body.)

This is about to be some real shit about a failing (failed?) marriage. Get out now if that is not for you.

My wife and I, both in our 40s, have been together for a long time, 20+ years. About 10 years ago our daughter was born and that was pretty good. I was stupid and had an affair during that first year because I was immature and, in retrospect, wasn't able to handle the shift in my wife's attention from me to my daughter.

We worked it out. We moved to a bigger house that is paid off. My mom died and left us all some money. Then my wife was diagnosed with MS about 4 years ago and things have been on the decline.

We haven't had sex in a year and neither of us again expects to. She has been depressed and I don't know how to help her. We recently, like yesterday, determined in a mutual discussion that we no longer had a romantic relationship, but that we had a good partnership for raising our daughter and generally handling life. While it was good to get an unspoken truth out there, it hurts. I think that we both feel lonely in the aching soul sort of way. Last night, when we went to bed, for first time that I can recall, she didn't say, "I love you," and neither did I. My Prozac is working overtime, and she shuts down when I suggest mental health support for her.

So, here's the question. What now?

32 comments

Therapy for you to figure out if you should even stay in the marriage, then therapy to help you through what ever you decide to do.
- I know that you're right. I don't know what I would do if I went to therapy and we determined that the marriage should end. My wife's health insurance is through my work. My daughter would be wrecked. It is scary.
  
  It's definitely scary to dive into this, but try to remember: whatever the results of therapy, you'll almost certainly be better for it on the other side. And your daughter will most likely be better off--because her parents will be in a better place, and because you'll be setting a good example for her when she grows up and faces challenges.
  
  A therapist shouldn't tell you what to do, just provide a safe space to explore your feelings, work through all the relevant questions you can think of, and maybe help brainstorm if you can't come up with your own options.
  
  Your wife and daughter's situations are relevant, but so is yours. If your wife isn't in love either but neither of you want to divorce, it sounds like your options are to either work on repairing and rekindling the marriage within the constraints of her diagnoses, or mutual agreement to keep the marriage going for now but see other people. Both are full of challenges and risks. If she's not ok with either of those, then you may have to make a decision for yourself.
  
  I can tell you from my own experience, you don't do the child a favor by sticking to a broken relationship, I wished my parents have broken up earlier instead of pretending everything is good and that's how a normal relationship should be. It took me years and I sometimes still struggle today to draw a line and go into a conflict with my partner to figure things out instead of avoiding the conflict
  
  It’s important to know that, despite her youth, your daughter might be picking up more of what’s going on than either of you are intending to give her. Whatever you end up doing, having a real conversation about what’s going on is probably going to be beneficial.
  
  The only thing therapy is supposed to do is allow you to be happy/content with your decisions. It doesn't suddenly make you stop caring about your wife or your daughter. It should allow you to find the best decisions. You're still your own person with your own decisions and nothing will take that from you.
  
  If you don't want to end the marriage, then therapy will never mean you'll suddenly want to end your marriage. There is absolutely 0 reason to be afraid of therapy for this reason, in fact, it's incredibly irrational and counterproductive.
  
  Also, the question is what's "wrecking" your child more, an absolutely unhappy marriage and having two unhappy parents? Or having two happy parents that aren't married? It's not a clear answer imo. Anyway, after therapy you guys may be two happily married people again, best of both worlds, who knows
  
  It is definitely scary. I want to remind you that you were once a decently happy person and that therapy (both individual and couples therapy) is likely one of the few options you have to move back in that direction.
  
  It’s worth it (speaking from experience). That weight on your shoulders is just waiting to come off, but you likely need a bit of help to get things started.
  
  “hire good private teachers, and accept the resulting costs as money well-spent.” - Marcus Aurelius
  
  I feel you on this fear, but that fear can be aired in therapy. Therapy is ENORMOUSLY helpful. And, not to play the What-If game, could potentially have salvaged your romantic relationship had it been brought in earlier. (I do not say this to make you feel shitty, but so anyone else struggling may see it.)
  
  My wife and I started therapy at the first of our communication problems. We figured we have our car in for regular tune-ups, why not our marriage? And our therapist was thrilled. He said he wished more married couples began the process when they still got along well, because it’s easier.
  
  But it’s definitely worth it even late in the game. Getting an outside, trained perspective on navigating the issues you have as a couple can dramatically improve quality of life. Even if you never expect to be romantic partners again, it can make you work better as a team for the reasons you mentioned.
  
  I cannot recommend couples’ therapy enough.
It sounds like your wife is in deep grief. MS is torment, and she might be processing that grief for the rest of her life. She may not have space for a romance at all. That may never change. Sometimes, MS doesn’t let you get “back to normal”.

It is deeply crucial that you get everyone to counseling now, and not just individually but in spouse and group sessions. As much as you can afford. You have already started a new dynamic and grieving your old one is natural. But you can still support each other and it’s important to do the work and figure out what that looks like.

Partnerships can be loving and supportive and caring and not romantic. Sometimes it’s a phase that comes back to romance, sometimes not. But you need to be ready to relearn a lot of things and that starts with counseling.

Edit: And oh my gosh, I should have led with this - I’m so sorry y’all are going through this. It’s incredibly hard and I hope you get the help you need.
Stay married for the health insurance, everybody start seeing other people. Your wife's depression is (probably) not your responsibility. Tell your daughter (and each other) love is not as simple as made out in movies, but can be much more. Everyone's happiness is more important than following traditional ways. Always stay respectful towards everyone involved.

This is advice from a childless slut. You would probably be foolish to follow it.
- Good disclaimer
- I've been divorced. It sucks. But it sucks way less than being trapped in a loveless, bitter relationship for far too long. Like the other poster says, get in therapy and work out what You want. Big change is scary and hard. Having to adjust to things we truly believed were settled is a motherfucker.
  
  This is opinion, but it seems to me that teaching your daughter that making changes, even when they're hard, is important and dealing with big feelings should come first. At the end of the day, is it better for her to be loved in two houses or see the resentment build in one? For me, it was more important that my son be loved and feel safe in two homes. Teaching him to stay in a relationship because it was "easy" seemd wrong. Again, that's an opinion, not an objective truth.
Yo man, love is not what you thought it was, and this is a part of it. It's very normal for stuff like that to come up when a child is born. It's common to find yourself in ruts where you don't feel attracted to one another. Most of all, it's super fucking healthy to talk about it and not just pretend like everything is great.

Best advice is that you, her, and the two of you as a couple all get in therapy. Talking with people about this stuff is what helps that settle the dust after that flashbang.

My therapist would say "yeah, you're not going to be wild about each other all the time without MDMA or cocaine. And it wouldn't be healthy. This is healthy."

If she's shutting down when you suggest mental health support for her, suggest it for her for you. She might not think she needs it but you two are a dyadic unit. You live together, her her mental health affects you both, just as yours affects her.
Is your kid in therapy? Because going by what you've said, your partner has been sick and depressed for 40% of your kid's entire lifespan. That's bound to take a toll.
- Holy shit this. My parents stayed together "for the kids" and it was bad for us. Therapy has helped me repair so much and develop in areas that were lacking. I'm someone I couldn't have ever imagined becoming when I was a teen as a result.
You should really push your wife into good therapy that is specialized for people with conditions like MS. Frame it as part of the treatment for MS.

That said, once she starts getting therapy, you may want to have discussions with her on what your relationship is after your daughter leaves the house. She is going to need extensive support for the rest of her life. She is going to need to decide if that is with you or not. I don't know if she is ready to make that decision now.
- Frame it as part of the treatment for MS.
  
  Solid idea. Though, I feel like this is phrased a bit strangely, because it makes it sound like this is duplicitous. A part of the treatment for any chronic condition would be how to cope with and emotionally process living with it. This is part of the treatment for MS.
The hardest part of true love is to separate sex from love. I've been in your shoes twice. Once when my late wife(mother of my children) grew sick over several years, and we could no longer have sex, and again with my current partner. In both cases I still love them dearly and will never stop. Sex is not love, it's a physical act with intense intimacy. There are other ways to be intimate without sex. Watching a movie together, talking about your day or your child, even just cuddling.

Another thing that helps immensely is that I am polyamorous and so are all my partners so I'm also not limited to a single relationship for love and sex.
Love takes many forms. Caring for someone without the expectation of a benefit you want is a form of love. If my wife came down with MS and we could no longer have sex, I would still love her, respect her and admire the mother and life partner that she is. I would also be upset that I couldn't have sex any more.

I personally would try to figure out the following, with or without professional help:

Why is she depressed? She is going through a lot. She is probably scared you are going to abandon her when she needs someone the most. She may also hate the situation that you are in because of her illness. She is also probably angry at the world that she has to suffer this. She is also probably worried for her child and feels guilty that she can't give her more. There are so many feelings she has to process, it may be easier to just shut down.

If you remove the expectations of sex with her, would you be willing to stay with her as a caring and respectful partner and mother to your child?

You might explore non-monogamy. That's going to be a complicated conversation, but maybe something your wife is willing to explore. Just ensure it takes into consideration all the issues in the first point.

A good mother and partner is so hard to find. Love can take many forms. Don't feel limited in your choices if you can make other options work out.
My ex grew up in a "business agreement" household. She never saw any affection between her parents, and expected our marriage to be the same. We had three kids together, and things were mostly fine, but it wore me down. After 15 years of not feeling like she loved me, we divorced.

I'm now remarried and we don't hesitate to show each other that we are in love every day.

It's not an easy situation, especially when kids are involved. If the kid was 16 or so, it might be worth sticking it out until they are grown, but any more than that, you will start to resent your wife, and question your choices gradually until it tortures you daily.
I have a similar situation with my wife. Not MS and actually not even a word I can use as she just has a perponderance of medical issues and maybe someday there will be a word for something foundational that causes it. American healthcare, amirite. It really sucked because honestly her incredible sexuality was a big factor in my attraction to her. Im essentially a wierd nerd who she jumped all over and Im not like one of those idiots who think theres a marrying kind. Let me put it this way. When we were dating but before marriage we went to a sex shop with a couple of friends and we were the only ones in a relationship. A great friend (who passed away since rip) turns to me and says "Im so jealous", because, you know, my girlfriend is going to a sex shop with me. Granted its a group activity and we were being edgy. Anyway she start bringing products to the counter after a we window shop for awhile and the same friend turns to me and says "Im really. REALLY! Jealous.". We have been together for just under 25 years and been married for just a year or so less than that. We are both super depressed both from the medical stuff and from the money issues which we would not have at all except, americanhealthcareamirite, well and what we will do when I can't work (ie american retirement which is not something you choose to do). We have not had sex in I don't know how long. feels like a decade. It sucks. We fight. We still say we love each other although her more than me (thats always been the case as she is more open love than i in more than just sex). We still recognize that we doubt anyone on the earth would be better than us for us in our situation and that if we did not have the situation we would be doing great. So we stay together because we recogize the depresion, the awefulness, its not from us. Its form our situation. An yeah yeah, if we were borken up she would have no job and be sick and be totally fucked while I would be relatively healthy and economically good but honestly. I would have no point to life. my life has been her and hers has been me for so many years. how could it be anything else.
I've been divorced. It sucks. But it sucks way less than being trapped in a loveless, bitter relationship for far too long. Like the other poster says, get in therapy and work out what You want. Big change is scary and hard. Having to adjust to things we truly believed were settled is a motherfucker.

This is opinion, but it seems to me that teaching your daughter that making changes, even when they're hard, is important and dealing with big feelings should come first. At the end of the day, is it better for her to be loved in two houses or see the resentment build in one? For me, it was more important that my son be loved and feel safe in two homes. Teaching him to stay in a relationship because it was "easy" seemd wrong. Again, that's an opinion, not an objective truth.
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- Serious question: How does a trial separation work with a child? I remember having a divorce scare when I was little and it still haunts me. I can't imagine telling my kid "well we are separated now because we want to try out how it would be if we divorced" and letting it live through that limbo of uncertainty. Even if we get back together - that will they won't they seems to be too much to bear for a child. We are always told to be clear and consistent with our kids and this is definitely the opposite of it.
  
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Your own mental health is important, too. When considering your own needs, you aren’t being greedy or selfish. Being a better, healthier person makes you better towards others.

It concerns me that your wife is reluctant to consider mental health support. Hopefully this is just an initial fear that will fade over time, but maybe it isn’t. If she won’t help herself, you can’t have a positive family environment, and that will hurt your daughter, too.
Curious, how have you been suggesting she get help for depression, exactly?

I’ll describe two extremes & I’m not saying you’re either of these, but: there’s a big difference between “sweetie, tell me what’s in your heart & I won’t interrupt till you pour it all out” , and , “Why aren’t you giving me sex? You’re sad?! Ugh, get help”.

You never hear both sides from an internet AITA so who knows. If I was some domestic divorce judge (it’s the internet, we’re all a judge) I’d say if one partner cheated & the other has a progressively degenerative condition, one of these two people needs to try REAL hard to not be the asshole. (The other one should try too, but maybe not as hard)

Take a few days and sleep on the couch or go to a hotel like every other couple. See if she asks you to leave or not. Doesn’t sound like you actually said anything concrete 🤷‍♂️

Idk I’m just some internet tough guy
What now is a stupid question, so you're in the right place. Maybe you're looking for strangers to give you general advice. Try talking to a family member, friend, or professional.
I left a marriage after 20 years. You don't have to hate her, but why stay?
- I'd wager the MS and the daughter are reason enough.
I'm sorry to hear that, that's really hard. Accept an internet hug from us friendly strangers on Lemmy!

If you're not too averse to Christian stuff, I highly and personally recommend https://www.themarriagecourse.org/

It won't probably help directly with coping with the MS, but can be really great for helping a lot of other areas of marriage, including your struggles with intimacy save romance. I recommend going in person if there's one near enough.

Something like that can be great to do whether your marriage is on the rocks or going beautifully smoothly. - That might help your wife get over the sort of looming threat of "mental help for her".

Anyway I'd second the advice of others that therapy can help. Don't be afraid of finding you're not suited for each other: Good marriage counselling is not just about "finding happiness with your own decision," as another has said. Good marriage counselling helps you understand and rediscover each other and yourselves, giving you the best chance of (re)building relationship and new love with each other.

I can't promise a cure-all solution, but I hope it can help.
- Sorry that you are getting downvoted for this. Thanks for the information.
Being non-monog myself, my instinct is to tell you to try non-monogamy. But obvs I have no idea how she would react to that suggestion.

32 comments