Removal of piracy communities
Removal of piracy communities
Removal of piracy communities
Hello world!
Some of you will already have noticed that we have removed some piracy related communities from Lemmy.World during the last day.
Lack of communication
First off, we want to address the lack of communication.
Not everyone in our current admin team has been with us long enough to be aware of the previous issues and discussions related to these communities and the impact this has on our community.
We should absolutely have published this announcement when or before we removed the communities, not hours later. After realizing this mistake, we would have liked to write this a lot earlier already, but we were all busy with irl things, that we just didn’t have time for it.
Lemmy.World is run by volunteers on their personal time, nobody here gets paid for what we do.
Removed communities
Next, we want to explain how we got to the decision to remove these communities.
!crackwatch@lemmy.dbzer0.com
A lot of the recent content posted to this community included images instructing users to visit a specific website to obtain a copy of the release that the post is about. These instructions were in the form of Type in Google: visit-this.domain. The domain referenced in these posts is entirely focused on video game piracy and providing people with access to copyright infringing material.
While there may be legal differences between whether one is linking to specific content on a domain or just linking to the domain itself, such as linking to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_piracy compared to linking to https://en.wikipedia.org/, we do not consider this to be clear enough in laws and previous lawsuits that linking to just the domain is acceptable, if that domain is primarily about distributing copyright infringing material. We therefore do not allow linking to such domains. Additionally, we do not see a significant difference between posting a link directly to a website and embedding said link in an image, so we treat them equally.
!piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
This community is, for the most part, just about discussing various topics related to piracy. We do not at all mind discussion about this topic, and if it had been limited to that, this community would be fine.
This community, however, contains a pinned Megathread post by a community moderator, which, through a few levels of a pastebin-like site, provides an aggregated overview of various sources of content. Some of these sources are entirely legal content, but it intentionally includes various other references, such as the website referred to from the CrackWatch community, which are primarily intended for copyright infringement.
lemmy.dbzer0.com is willing to accept this content on their instance, as well as the potential legal risk coming from this, which they’re free to do.
We do not plan to defederate from lemmy.dbzer0.com, but we will continue to remove communities that are directly facilitating copyright infringement. @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com, the admin of lemmy.dbzer0.com, is a great person, and we have no problems with him as a person. This is just a matter of different risk tolerance.
!piracy@lemmy.ml
Same as !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com.
Why have the piracy communities been restored previously? What changed?
Currently, based on the memories of team members involved in the decision back then, it appears that there was a misunderstanding between the community moderators and Lemmy.World admins in how the community will be moderated going forward, as well as which types of content are allowed.
Lemmy.World expected/assumed that links to websites primarily focused on facilitating distribution of pirated content would be disallowed in these communities.
The community moderators however do tolerate references to such websites, as long as people are not linking to individual content directly.
We suspect that this may have been missed during our original review when restoring the communities, which lead us to previously restoring these communities.
Why now?
We have recently received a takedown request for content not directly related to these communities, but it prompted us to review other piracy related content and communities.
Terms of Service clarification
Last, as we’ve reviewed our Terms of Service, we have updated our wording here to make it more clear what is and what isn’t allowed when it comes to piracy. This was already covered by "Do not post illegal content of any type. Do not engage in any activity that may […] facilitate or provide access to illegal transactions" in section 4, but we have now added section 4.1 to better explain this.
We apologize for the delays in communication.
-
lemmy.dbzer0.com is willing to accept this content on their instance, as well as the potential legal risk coming from this, which they’re free to do.
Well, it's more that we believe a domain root url embedded in an image, or a link to a rentry doesn't really have any risks. At least, nothing likely to get us sued. Note that all these domain links existed (and still exist) in the reddit /r/piracy wiki for years without problems.
The reason being that almost all of these takedowns are coming from automated crawlers, who won't bother OCR every image they come across, or b64-decoding every string.
-
yeah, as long as you don't specifically point to a copyright infringing content things will be fine. that's why all piracy related subreddits are still not taken down.
-
Must be exhausting having this problem with LW twice now. Can't make this shit up at this point. Lol
-
-
I'm unhappy with this decision and don't support it.
-
same
-
You aren't on the lemmy.world server so why does it matter to you?
-
Well you see, since Lemmy.world is a large instance, the vast majority of the Lemmy network actually. Such decisions ultimately affect everyone else because they slash your engagement severely in all affected communities.
So even on other instances the decisions of a behemoth like lemmy.world can still affect users there, in way more indirect and annoying ways.
-
-
-
This is where the benefit of having more than one account on different instances comes in. When admins make a move users don't like, users can just log into a different instance to access the content they want to see.
Honestly though, not very good optics on doing this without any prior communication. You are going to do whatever you want on your instance, but as IIRC the biggest Lemmy instance, its a really bad look to be making changes without saying anything. It makes me (and likely others) wonder if you hadn't been called out on it by some users posting about it if there would even have been an announcement like this at all. Granted, there is no legal obligation for transparency, but many users here greatly appreciate the transparency in the past that was done prior to taking action for the most part.
Side note: Going to go out on a limb here and assume the content takedown request was Nintendo related, and the takedown request was probably filed by someone who does not actually represent Nintendo. This happens so often that it is basically my default assumption. This may or may not be the case here, but its hard to imagine that there would be anyone else with their eyes on such a tiny community as Lemmy, especially in comparison to Reddit.
-
When it comes to linking to content, it's essential to understand that simply providing a link does not equate to sharing the actual content. Each URL on the Megathread serves the specific purpose of leading users in a particular direction.
If this practice is deemed negative, then one could argue that every search engine operates erroneously. Search engines display results and guide users to specific destinations, mirroring the functionality of our approach to linking.
-
This shit again? Last time I jumped from world the instance I went to shut down. I guess its time to start looking at spinning up my own.
I get it. But I want to see that stuff. So I can't stay where I can't see it.
-
That's totally understandable and we wouldn't blame you for moving to a instance that doesn't block piracy I'd you would like access to that. We just cannot take the risk.
-
-
People are always welcome to join the ship , the seas are all open for everyone to adventure.
-
The decisions you make are one thing. The way you keep handling them so incredibly poorly is quite another.
-
We try to be as transparent as possible. There was a lag between action and announcement, it happens sometimes.
-
-
Whilst I completely understand why you, as private individuals with limited income and not a huge org that has high priced legal teams on call, have made this decision (I think people forget that it costs money just to defend yourself in court, irrespective of how accurate or legal the charges might be), this is about the 3rd or 4th time that the Admin team have communicated and taken action very, very poorly.
It's really not a difficult thing to do. A post such as this either before or immediately after taking such important actions. I realise you're all busy people with real life stuff to do too but surely you tell new Admin's when they're onboarded that momentous decisions that affect a lot of people must be communicated to the members immediately?
-
Yeah, we're sorry for the lag. We did post post a few hours later, as we're all in different timezones.
-
I understand that, but surely the Admin who took the action isn't in a different timezone form themselves? What was stopping them immediately posting just before or just after taking the action?
-
-
-
We have recently received a takedown request for content not directly related to these communities, but it prompted us to review other piracy related content and communities.
What a pathetic response. I am interpreting this as:
We will fold whenever we get a legal request, real or not.
To users on .world, I strongly recommend scrubbing your posts, deleting your account, and then going to a different instance. These admins have proven that they WILL buckle to legal pressure no matter what - that means also giving up user data upon request. Your data is completely accessible by admins. That includes your private messages and unpublished pictures.
Off the top of my head I can think of a few scenarios:
- Being LGBTQIA+ in a country where its illegal to be
- Consuming content from websites not approved by the Chinese government while being a Chinese citizen
- Disparaging the Chinese government while being a Chinese citizen
- Activism discussion (eg. extinction rebellion, antifa, the auntie network)
- Right to repair in countries where its illegal to circumvent device DRM to perform repairs
I've deleted my account there because that TOS and so-called privacy policy are complete and utter trash.
-
That includes your private messages
Those messages are not private, there is a disclaimer about it every time you write one
-
Which is why we should refer to them as "DMs" or "direct messages".
-
-
@lwadmin@lemmy.world, this is my concern right here.
Thanks for running things, but I can't recommend people use lemmy.world at this point.
-
Lemmy.World is legally primarily bound by the countries listed here.
If we get a request, of course we will evaluate that request.
When it comes to taking down content, such as copyright infringing content, we may err on the side of caution to reduce the legal risk we're exposing ourselves to.
When it comes to handing over data that is not already publicly accessible, such as (not-really-)private messages or IP addresses of users, we will not "err on the side of caution" and hand out data to everyone, but we must follow the laws that we're operating under. See also https://legal.lemmy.world/privacy-policy/#4-when-and-with-whom-do-we-share-your-personal-information.
-
Might as well ban Lemmy.ml under rules 1, 2, 4, and 5.1 if you're going to start enforcing your rules.
-
Why isn't this pinned to the site? I had to go searching for the reason
-
Trying to avoid people seeing it because they'll get more backlash and probably lose donators and rightfully so. These types of knee-jerk reactions combined with the refusal to address feedback are very concerning.
-
It was a nosedive.
-
-
It is pinned, in the community where i would expect to find this kind of information.
-
-
Not cool, reverse this
-
I don't like the decision, like most people here.
But it's unbelievable to see the reaction of many users. Providing a free uncompensated server and bandwidth and monitoring and all the related stuff is apparently not enough. There's is people basically demanding free legal representation, protection, and challenges to many country laws. That's completely insane. The comments criticizing the instance for 'folding' against legal request better have ready 100k USD for retainer of a top copyright legal firm, with even more ready for a lengthy and expensive legal battle. Otherwise it is just nuts to me the responses we are seeing.
Again, of course I don't like it and will consider my options like moving instance, but I understand that I am responsible for the content I seek and the legality of it. I will not feel entitled to offload the burden of that responsibility on someone else demanding that it be carried for free.
To the instance admins I only have to say thank you for the service you provide, thank you for putting in actions the spirit of sharing and community. And please do exercise your right to protect yourself legally.
For us users is seems so simple as just export our stuff and go somewhere else, but for the instance admins there have been so much time and other resources invested that certainly must be sad and frustrating to risk it all, so it's better to follow the way that leads to the continuation of the project, and we should understand that if we want the project to continue, like I do.
I wish there were better options, like better laws or the independent tech for better protection and anonymity, but this is the reality of what we have and we all have to engage with things as they are. We can keep demanding changes to the people really in charge of the system instead of fighting among each other.
-
The comments criticizing the instance for ‘folding’ against legal request better have ready 100k USD for retainer of a top copyright legal firm, with even more ready for a lengthy and expensive legal battle.
I hope you're not going to take this the wrong way, but I want to be clear - this is not at all what is involved in legal services or remotely the costs involved. Generally speaking, the review of a claim like this is an hour or two at most. You can also preemptively review these concepts with a lawyer, and get a handy-dandy letter or two to be used as a common first tier response (which also handily dismisses the majority of claims, which tend to be bunk). Several hours at least.
Costs for lawyers are typically in the $100-$600/hour range, with very few (top partners at large firms) getting into the $2k-$3k/hour territory. A lawyer with a specialty in intellectual property is going to land smack in the middle of average these days, around $250-$350/hr.
A $100k retainer, or any retainer really, is unnecessary. The actual costs for some basic legal support are about the low range in costs for a month of operation of their servers ($900-$2200/mo per their own public costing statements through opencollective).
Forget anything else in terms of piracy communities or anything else. Speaking with a lawyer to cover the bases is a smart decision - remember that there have already been issues like CSAM that have cropped up. A bit of up-front smarts and a couple of hours with a lawyer pays dividends. The reality is, them making guesses - and immediately backing down to any request - is a problem for anyone using their servers. Its a real concern, don't be dismissive.
-
I hope you're not going to take this the wrong way
Absolutely not, I also agree, as some others have pointed out, that there have been mishappens with communication, so I'm glad that there's discussion about the issue. Thanks for clarifying with your knowledge and doing so nicely.
this is not at all what is involved in legal services or remotely the costs involved
To be honest, everything I know about that is what I have read about the number of cases when platforms or other kind of purveyors of piracy are sentenced to or settle paying tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands or even millions. Those are real cases where the people involved obviously felt very confident about their legal safety. Surely, most of the situations are not like that and don't even get to be in the news because of how insignificant the resolutions are.
But, is there a way to be sure about what kind of outcome would lemmy.world would get to be completely confident about doing or not doing one thing or another?
Costs for lawyers are typically in the $100-$600/hour range, with very few (top partners at large firms) getting into the $2k-$3k/hour territory. A lawyer with a specialty in intellectual property is going to land smack in the middle of average these days, around $250-$350/hr.
Is that just one time? Is that total to get a safe and definitive resolution? Or is that every time the situation arises? What about companies that exist exclusively to massively send takedown requests? What about copyright trolls? If the instance openly accepts the legal liability, the number of times that this happens will decrease, increase or stay the same?
The reality is, them making guesses - and immediately backing down to any request - is a problem for anyone using their servers. Its a real concern
I guess we go back to the point I tried to make. My position is that the instance admins are not obligated to be a legal shield for the users to have any kind of content that we want on the platform. This is not a privacy-focused nor a free speech-focused service, never has been, data is not encrypted, users have identifiable information, there are commercial services being used to run it, used under another set of TOS and hired with real world legally responsible identities. To say 'Well the legal cost of keeping piracy on the site is not that high I think' seems like an unfair position to me.
I do pirate stuff myself, sometimes because it is more convenient, sometimes because it is moral, sometimes is the only option. But I take the responsibility of doing so myself. If whatever site I use decides to shut down tomorrow, I won't make a fuss about it. Demanding to someone else to face the possibility of legal trouble because it will only take them a few hours and max a couple of thousand dollars and is comfortable to me, is what seems concerning to me.
-
-
-
ಠ_ಠ
Behold my look of slight disapproval.
I'd much rather find out about these sorts of things from you guys than a fediverse post.
I already have an alt for nosing around on such stuff since last time around, so it's not hugely inconvenient.
Still, thanks for keeping things running. Much appreciated!
-
We're really trying our best the keep the lights on and our servers safe. ❤️
-
-
I knew this announcement was coming and I'd figured this action would have come from an admin who wasn't aware of the previous context.
-
I just love the idea that an admin would take action without communicating with literally anyone else on the team, and that be a totally normal and okay thing.
-
The execution should have been better, but the decision itself was a team decision, not an individual admin decision without talking to the rest of the team.
-
-
It's actually hilarious 🍿
-
-
where’s the integrity? quite frankly i don’t get the “we didn’t know” rhetoric. the previous removal is literally the most controversial post of all time. understood that they can be subject to legal action. no blame for being risk adverse but this post is kind of a nothingburger.
-
Running my own instance really starts to pay off
-
What a shame, well the last piracy ban was what motivated me to join lemm.ee, no regrets at all, better uptimes, quicker updates and no censorship.
-
So you had plenty of time to make a decision, and follow through with it by banning multiple communities. But offering an explanation it's all "we're all volunteers and we're too busy for this shit!". Nice.
-
Shame that you folks couldn't even allow educational discourse on Piracy.
-
Meta conversation is allowed. We added that exception.
-
-
looks like I be spinning up my own private instance to not have to deal with de-federations or anything like that.
-
ahhh feels refreshing! untill i got my own instance running but hey I might just stay
-
Yarr harr harr welcome on board jolly
-
-
-
So to make it clear: people are allowed to make new piracy centric communities with the express rule to not post direct links to primarily providing copyright infringing material?
I‘m not a lawyer but I read legal texts at times.
This would most likely save .world from the repercussions (btw its how reddit mostly handles it afaik) and maybe some posts could be crossposted on a per case basis.
I‘m trying to be constructive here so please be gentle.
Disclaimer: it is fairly easy to host a lemmy instance, please consider helping thw fediverse by hosting if youre a tech savvy person. Otherwise, join a stable instance at https://fediseer.com
-
So to make it clear: people are allowed to make new piracy centric communities with the express rule to not post direct links to primarily providing copyright infringing material?
Nope, it's more than that. Lemmy.world admins don't want you to link to any websites that link to anything that might contain direct links or references to direct links. Strangely that means that linking to Google or Reddit would fail that test so links to those sites should be removed by lemmy.world admins too.
Per admin's own post they removed !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
This community, however, contains a pinned Megathread post by a community moderator, which, through a few levels of a pastebin-like site, provides an aggregated overview of various sources of content. Some of these sources are entirely legal content, but it intentionally includes various other references, such as the website referred to from the CrackWatch community, which are primarily intended for copyright infringement.
The megathread post that admins are referring to contains links to a different website that contains links - that website is not on Lemmy at all. Lemmy.world admins took this removal action because the community contains a link to another site that may contain links lemmy.world admins don't like.
-
Hmmmm… I get your point. That might become a bigger problem in the future because it implies .world admins and mods are not following a logical ruleset. But its not my place to demand it from them. Their users have to do that. I dont even have an account on world.
-
-
Yes there could be that "workaround" for legal posts but like said if there is one direct to a torrent, download or a mega thread website where you can download any illegal stuff the post will be removed. This includes stuff like instructions to put word by word into google search.
-
i get that. Why would this change anything? The legal threat is real and .world is a prime target for everyone who wants to see lemmy fail.
Its obviously the best choice and we have fediseer or selfhosting as alternatives. I dont see how there is any other choice or even consideration to be had at this point.
Feel free to help me see it if I missed something.
-
-
-
Take lessons from my previous unremoval announcement and undo this. This is really stupid
-
And this is why lemmy will never get close to what reddit was. On top of the cumbersome registration process and difficulty of navigating the fediverse for the non-tech people, there is also the issue of de-federation and censorship. This is no better then reddit unfortunately. It makes me sad, this really seemed like a good idea, but the implementation is so poor.
People were saying it won't matter what instance you choose, everything is federated and you choose what you want to see, but clearly the instance admins make that choice for you and it absolutely does matter the instance you choose.
-
I regret having donated to you guys, you do not deserve it.
I moved to a new instance, and happier for it. I recommend others doing the same. lemmy.world is run in a way that makes reddit look nice.
-
I do not believe that this decision has been made in good faith and is against the wishes of the community
-
Anyone have a recommendation for a smaller (but not minuscule) instance that has lax piracy rules and doesn’t make political identity to be a lifestyle? Ideally hosted in the EU or Switzerland?
-
Come on over to lemm.ee
-
-
the piracy community in lemmy.ml i can agree with the removal of, all of the others don't make any sense.
-
Overreach and how the Lemmy.world admins became /u/spez
-
Permanently Deleted
-
I bet Zuckerberg asked for the content to be removed and you're just cleaning house before he takes over.
-
Permanently Deleted
-
Thank you for your hard work. I feel that a delay of a few hours is acceptable for a voluntary service. I am sure there are many commercial services which have much worse communication.
I personally feel that being able to discuss piracy but banning communities that have links that actively promote piracy seems like a sensible safe legal position. This is probably what I would do if there was even a possibility I might be legally liable for an instance.
I can understand users frustration but I don’t think it’s fair to take it out on the admins. It is a thankless task which people do to benefit their community. The great thing with the fediverse is that you have other low cost options to turn to if an instance no longer works for you.
-
This is on the mod team of the mentioned communities. On no commercial site this crap would fly. On reddit fitgirls site is never mentioned in full for good reason. Crosslinking to pastebin blobs is just formaiity. These communities should be kept clear of any linking.
-
On reddit fitgirls site is never mentioned in full for good reason.
That's just false. There's a direct link in the r/piracy megathread.
-
On crackwatch people avoided it a lot I think. Might have changed at some point.
-
-
-
Awesome I'm glad you're one of a few instances here who take a stand against piracy.
You might want to also address these other ones you seem to have missed:
- !piracy@lemm.ee (clone of Piracy)
- !steamdeckpirates@lemmy.dbzer0.com (steam deck piracy community)
- !newyuzupiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Switch game piracy community)
- !pirataria@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Spanish piracy community)
- !pcreleases@lemmy.dbzer0.com (PC games crack releases)
- !switchpirates@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Switch game piracy community)
- !3dspiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (3ds game piracy community)
- !trackers@lemmy.dbzer0.com (torrent piracy community)
- !linuxwarez@lemmy.dbzer0.com (linux PC game piracy community)
- !flashcarts@lemmy.dbzer0.com (circumvention device community for pirated cartridge games)
- !questpiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Meta Quest piracy community)
- !the_pirate_emporio@lemmy.dbzer0.com (alternate piracy community
- !seedboxes@lemmy.dbzer0.com (seedbox/torrenting piracy community)
- !cemupiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Wii U piracy community)
- !opencracks@lemmy.dbzer0.com (PC game cracks community)
- !vitapiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Playstation Vita Piracy community
- !liberashop@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Switch game piracy community)
- !retropiratres@lemmy.dbzer0.com (classical console game piracy)
- !roms@lemmy.dbzer0.com (copyrighted rom files for classic and not quite classic console games)
- !torrent_trackers@lemmy.ml (torrent piracy community)
- !piracynews@lemmy.ml (community dedicated to crack releases)
- !animepiracy@lemmy.ml (anime piracy community)
- !piracy@lemmy.world (piracy community on Lemmy.world)
- !textbookpiracy@lemmy.world (community for piracy of academic materials)
- !trackers@lemmy.world (torrent piracy community on Lemmy.world)
- !ps3piracy@lemmy.world (Playstation 3 Piracy community on Lemmy.world)
Thank you for all the hard work you do.
-
thanks you for this list. didn't know those cool Lemmy instances existed! Time to follow them
-
LMAO same.
-
-
You're the same troll from last time.
At least this time, you provided a handy sign-up list that can be shared far and wide. Kudos to you for linking to and sharing piracy resources with the general public. I sure hope you don't get banned for breaking the new rules.
- !piracy@lemm.ee (clone of Piracy)
- !steamdeckpirates@lemmy.dbzer0.com (steam deck piracy community)
- !newyuzupiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Switch game piracy community)
- !pirataria@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Spanish piracy community)
- !pcreleases@lemmy.dbzer0.com (PC games crack releases)
- !switchpirates@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Switch game piracy community)
- !3dspiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (3ds game piracy community)
- !trackers@lemmy.dbzer0.com (torrent piracy community)
- !linuxwarez@lemmy.dbzer0.com (linux PC game piracy community)
- !flashcarts@lemmy.dbzer0.com (circumvention device community for pirated cartridge games)
- !questpiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Meta Quest piracy community)
- !the_pirate_emporio@lemmy.dbzer0.com (alternate piracy community
- !seedboxes@lemmy.dbzer0.com (seedbox/torrenting piracy community)
- !cemupiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Wii U piracy community)
- !opencracks@lemmy.dbzer0.com (PC game cracks community)
- !vitapiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Playstation Vita Piracy community
- !liberashop@lemmy.dbzer0.com (Switch game piracy community)
- !retropiratres@lemmy.dbzer0.com (classical console game piracy)
- !roms@lemmy.dbzer0.com (copyrighted rom files for classic and not quite classic console games)
- !torrent_trackers@lemmy.ml (torrent piracy community)
- !piracynews@lemmy.ml (community dedicated to crack releases)
- !animepiracy@lemmy.ml (anime piracy community)
- !piracy@lemmy.world (piracy community on Lemmy.world)
- !textbookpiracy@lemmy.world (community for piracy of academic materials)
- !trackers@lemmy.world (torrent piracy community on Lemmy.world)
- !ps3piracy@lemmy.world (Playstation 3 Piracy community on Lemmy.world)
-
@MrKaplan@lemmy.world Might want to address this before the trolls and pirates brigade my comment(s).
-
You’re the same troll that started all this last time. Concern trolling is shameful behavior.
-