Bernie Would Have Won. Seriously.

This point about Bernie winning has been belabored, however consider a 2016 election where the DNC didn’t collude for Hillary. Then we have Bernie as the ticket and beating trump and never hearing of that fucker again (hopefully). What a different world it would’ve been having Bernie as the 45th president

The point is to hammer this into the thick skulls of the people running the DNC. They keep forcing shit down our throats. It's time for change.
- The problem is you people keep accepting it with gusto
The donors would have never stood for it, which is why the DNC did what it did.
- Yeah, the DNC will only support central and right leaning Capitalist candidates.
- They said "imagine," you potato.
Small tangent. Instead of reading it as bee-labored, I read belabored as bella-bored the first time and I was like, "Bela... bored....? Huh, that's a new word. Let's Google that! ... Oh, I'm an idiot."
- Thank you for letting me follow you on this unremarkable journey through mediocrity.
Which state's primary votes did the DNC alter or override to give Hillary the nomination by popular vote instead for Bernie?
- The other candidates gradually stepped aside to allow Hillary to run. The big one being Joe Biden not running as it was her "turn", allegedly after the deal between the Clintons and the Obamas.
  
  If Biden had run in 2016, he probably would have won. And Trump would be a footnote in history.
- What if I told you it was also about manipulating voter opinions.
  
  Like how the superdelegates were all pledging their votes to Hillary way ahead of the first primaries. Or how the DNC pushed Hillary over Bernie, as was clear in the Debbie W.S. leaked DNC emails. Also, the widespread pressure from party darlings on Bernie to drop out.
  
  Messaging from the media was to blame as well. This was reflected in:
  
  Lack of coverage of the polling that showed the better margin of success in a Bernie v. Trump matchup against a Hillary v. Trump matchup. This one is especially egregious, in my opinion, since a lot of the Hillary supporters I personally knew voted for her in the primaries because they assumed she had a better chance of winning.
  
  Lack of coverage about Bernie's higher popularity with independent voters in polls.
  
  Widespread reporting when Hillary decided to label Bernie supporters as basement dwellers.
  
  Hillary accused Bernie of being sexist and the media did terrible due diligence.
- Yeah what I remember working on the campaign was a bunch of people didn't show up and fucking vote in the primary and Bernie lost. Sure, there was some fuckery that shifted momentum but at the end of the day my fellow progressives didn't get enough votes because we act like the DNC controls the outcome of the primaries and end up helping make that the reality ourselves.
  
  If all the people bitching about the DNC and telling everyone the Democrats are a lost cause showed up to vote in the primary, Bernie would've won.
- I specifically remember Wyoming's DNC primary that year. Bernie had beat Hillary by a small margin, so essentially 50-50. In response, the DNC gave about 75% of the state's super delegates to Hillary.

I love Bernie. I know he would have beat Trump in 2016. Both tap into populist sentiment, albeit on different sides of the political spectrum. The difference is Bernie wouldn't have any of the baggage that Trump brings with the racism, misogyny, incoherence, etc. he would have won easily. I weep for what would have been. He would have been a champion for the working class, not the charlatan that Trump is.

I think one thing that the Republicans did that Dems didn't is they let the people pick their candidate. It's that simple. They didn't care how unpolished he was, his lack of pedigree, anything. There was no ideological purity test. They duked it out in their primary and let the people decide. Something for the Dems to learn from.

The primaries that the winning candidate refused to participate in? Check your fairness a little closer.

The turd has been given special treatment at every turn.
- Fair. I forgot about that

He’s 83 years old, older than both Trump and Biden.

I’d like to see AOC throw her hat in for 2028. She’ll be 39 then.

I'd love to see this but her chances are likely worse than Harris. And that's assuming we have an honest election in '28.
- Maybe, maybe not. Looking at the answers from her "AOC and Trump" voter cross-section, it seems like you just need to run someone who's "genuine." Both of them are seen as genuine or real (whether that's true or not, it doesn't matter).
  
  Populism can cut both ways and AOC might be just the ticket we need.
- I'm starting to be of the mind that literally nothing matters in the presidential election except vibes/personality. Assuming there is an election and assuming people are sick of Trump by then I think she'd have a great shot.
I would love this, but the DNC likely won't learn from their mistakes.
- Yeah, I've already seen the name "Gavin Newsom" floated around for 2028.
  
  DNC doesn't learn.
As much as I love her, America will never elect a female president anytime soon. There are many men who believe the presidency is a man's job.
- Why would you say that?
  
  Harris didn't lose because she was a woman - she lost because she was associated so heavily with the Biden administration as more, and more questions started being asked.
  
  Hillary didn't lose because she was a Woman, she lost because she was a Clinton and there are so many left overs - and by popular vote: She won, but the US isn't about the popular vote. But when we look at the split - it is VERY interesting.
  
  AOC is generally speaking - widely approachable, talks some sanity, is willing to talk both sides of the Aisle, and so on. I can't actually readily find a reason to be flat out opposed to her: I mean sure, there are policies and such that I don't always agree with - but generally speaking, it is rare to find someone you completely agree with, and someone you completely disagree with: And if you ALWAYS disagree with everything, and can't have a discussion - often times it's not the other person with the issue.
  
  The reality is, there are plenty of Men and Woman that won't or will vote one way or another for a wide number of reasons, and odds are - put into the mix, it all washes out.
  
  Truth is, when Covid was raging on - I kinda thought that Republicans would basically screw themselves over with the way it was handled and the death counts etc. But what it turns out - is a lot of deaths were assigned to covid but related to Cancer, heart disease, and so on with Covid as a contributing factor: So while dangerous, it seems the numbers were conflated - and that, is a very dangerous thing to do as the truth will, sooner or later, win out. And here we are.
  
  The thing is: AOC doesn't strike me as mainstream Democrat. And that alone will mean the DNC is unlikely to back her as a candidate - they want a party person through and through, and that, is ultimately what lost them this election.
- I don't think that Harris's problem was that she was a woman. Her problem, same as Mrs. Clinton, was everything else. And that is a long list for both of them. Being women probably didn't help, but it also wasn't their main chute.
I'd vote for her. I'm in Tennessee.. so it won't matter. But I'll vote for her.
They will fucking kill her. Not kidding. Unfortunately.
This thread is ridiculous. A woman or a jewish person cannot be elected President of the United States. How much more evidence do you need.
- They said the same thing about black people until a black man running as a progressive won the nomination. I think you've been learning the wrong lesson from all the elections since.
She's nothing but a gatekeeping mouthpiece for the DNC.

As impossible and abstract as it seems to realign the Democratic base by shared class interests, it’s still much a more concrete plan than “reduce bigotry in strangers”

Amen. Amen. Tried and failed, twice. Populism is the only way forward. Democrats must become the party of the poor again.

Strange thing to have to say.

Permanently Deleted
Voters are saying "I am going to be homeless and can't even afford bread". The Democrat response to this is "stop being racist, the economy is fine".

I'm really not sure what anyone expected besides failure from this.

It sucks because some of the agencies were doing good work, especially the mounting attacks on landlords and monopolists/oligopolists, which are necessary but will almost certainly end now. Honestly it felt like they wanted to lose, having learned nothing from 2016.

He always would have. He knows how to get the people motivated and straight up fucking torqued. He hits every nail when it comes to social or economic problems. On top of it all, he's so passionate about it he'll argue until he's red in the face for us. Honestly fuck everyone who worked to move that man out of the way.

And yet, he lost.

Bernie bros whinge so much about how unfair such and such was to Bernie. Do you think Trump's campaign would have been less fair?

Also do you forget Russia was supporting Bernie because they wanted him as a spoiler, and yet you all sit here and continue to divide rather than support people who are damn close to your own values. It's insane.
- Bernie lost the primaries when the DNC pushed a bunch of people out of the primary and have them endorse Hillary in a night time maneuver right before the deciding states primary elections.

Anyone can win, just as soon as you guys stop fighting tooth and nail to keep anyone but the most moderate democrat from being allowed to compete.

It seemed that it was a rejection of whatever political group was in power across the globe for the most part this year. This is largely in part because the world as a whole is still healing/recovering from the damage of COVID, and in the US the Dems were left to clean up an economic disaster left by Trump. And we have a large number of people who felt the effects of inflation and for reasons I can't wrap my head around felt the Dems needed to be voted out. Then we had all the people who wanted to teach the Dems a lesson because of Gaza by making sure Trump was elected to help Israel level the area and make sure there was no future for Palestinians (which is another contradiction I can't wrap my head around).

So really I think the Dems could have had a unicorn candidate (Bernie) and they still would have lost this election, because enough people only vote for themselves.

Fucking THANK YOU, for elucidating this so cleanly into a two paragraphs.

The wandering shell shock on Lemmy for a week was miserable to witness.
- Do you guys really believe the populist position is to "vote the Democrats out" and that Gaza was really the reason for voter apathy that effects half the population? Couldn't be messaging or effective policies being lacking, definitely blame anyone against a continually funded arsenal in the hands of aggressive governments.
- I agree. If we now acknowledge that genocide was a relevant factor in making the Dems loose, this is bad for AIPAC. We need to quickly reestablish different narratives to protect AIPAC interests by claiming it was everything but the genocide. It took AIPAC a few days to develop the new narratives but now we need to embrace them.
So really I think the Dems could have had a unicorn candidate (Bernie) and they still would have lost this election, because enough people only vote for themselves.

I always vote "for myself" which meant voting for Harris. Her policies are more in line with my best interests than all that maga bullshit.
- By "vote for themselves" I meant people voting based on the outcome for them personally. My being a white male allows me a large amount of privilege in this country, and so I choose to use my vote to help others (knowing it doesn't put us anywhere close to being treated equal overall). So my vote for Harris was to help women, people of color, immigrants, the kids (who are going to have education decimated now and white washed so much more than it already has been), and for trans kids/adults, for everyone in the LGBTQ+ orbit, and on and on. What would benefit me didn't even play into it, because I'd be fine comparatively (minus the anxiety/depression that Trump causes).
Under Trump, Palestine as understood today will cease to exist and Israel will have two new superfund sites to deal with
- Do you think the outcome would be different under democrats? Please tell me how the party that has given billions in support of israel's genocide for over a year was so totally going to stop it at any moment if they just simply got voted in again.
- Under the democrats today, this is literally happening and has for the past year now.

Everyone loves Bernie.

But dang it the man is 83. He should be enjoying the last years of his life in retirement. It makes me sad to think he still needs to be working in politics.

He's as old as Trump, who is already too old for this shit, will be at the end of his term.

Maybe there should be a hard limit at 65 or something for politicians. Both to keep out people in whom dementia is clearly starting to appear and to let old people frickin' rest.

We should, and it should be called the Logan's Run law, to give them something to think about

Man the delusion is always so real in a circular firing squad lol.

Honestly I think he would have simply because with the evidence we've seen, Americans are really that stupid and racist they as long as you promise them you'd magically fix all of their problems without any plan behind it.

Americans are rightfully concerned about the economy and I, even as a upper middle class person, was concerned about inflation but I'm pretty plugged into what's going on in the world because I have the luxury of having a job where I'm posting on Lemmy in the middle of the day.

Bernie would have offered loud, in your face I'm going to fuck corporations and get you a living wage, wither he could actually do that given America, it wouldn't have mattered because that what Americans wanted to hear, even if you never wanted to do that in the first place.

God I hate that Greenday is correct.

Is pretty clear that people are unhappy and want change.

There's no meaningful change to be had. The political parties and their funders have got very wealthy the way things are, and they'd like to keep it that way thank you very much.

The whole process in almost every country in undemocratic as shit. We need to be able to vote and have referendums on individual policies. Few people are 100% behind any candidate. What if you want abortions but hate immigrants? What if you're transgender but still think corporations should be able to stomp all over us?

You want X, you get X, Y, and Z. This is why it's always "lesser evil" and not "greater good". Your vote is diluted by sewage.

A lot of democrats could have won this election. Ultimately the big mistakes were allowing Biden to run unchallenged, then sticking with Biden until it was too late. Harris then had an impossible task to win.

If the democrats had an actual democratic process, and put their best possible candidate forward they may have won. Instead this election was very much a repeat of 2016 - the wrong candidate, being favoured through to the election by the DNC. In 2016 the DNC closed ranks around Clinton because of fear of Bernie and also because of a crazy notion that it was "her turn". Biden didn't run when he should have. This time Biden ran when he shouldn't have, and other strong candidates in the party didn't get a chance.

But it was more than the candidate - the election focus was totally wrong. 1/3 of the electorate did not vote - and this election is not a story of Trump breaking through. Trump got 74m votes in 2020 and about 74m now. The Dems got 81m votes in 2020 and 71m votes now - Trump is basically static; but the Dems lots 10m votes because they ran a bad campaign. Those missing 10m voters are in the 1/3 who are not included in polls; because Trump has not broken much above his 74m ceiling. The Dems floor fell out under them instead.

The polls always showed 50:50 but that was just "likely voters". Really 1/3 support dems, 1/3 support reps and 1/3 weren't going to vote. That vast pool of people are not all never voters; the missing 10m are in there. THAT is where the Dems should have been going for votes. Forget the republicans; they should have been reaching out to the disinterested and disenfranchised. A positive message that actually addresses their concerns.

The "moderate" Republican votes were never in play nor worth courting, and the abortion and democracy focuses were not the priorities of voters. The dems needed to listen to the actual voters - and the message of what the voters cared about is clear: the economy. The Dems needed to have a clearer message on the economy - "it's doing great" does not tally with voters experiences who are living with high cost of living after inflation. Prices haven't fallen back, they've just stopped rising as fast. The message to voters should have been "we've done some stuff but there is more to do" and offer clear policies are wage growth, housing/rent costs etc. Give the disinterested in particular something to vote for.

So yes, maybe Bernie would have won. But lets not forget he chose to endorse Biden, not run in the democratic party primary. So it's actually his fault too.

Only Dean Philips, Marianne Williamson and Jason Palmer actually stood up and challenged Biden in the primaries, and they were criticised for doing so as if they were the reason Trump would win.

The Clintons need to retire from public life. Seriously.

I've been saying that since the DNC muscled him out in 2015. Stupid establishment Republicrats.

someone should figure out how to clone him

Bernie may have, but also fuck The Intercept and we dodged a bullet not letting Tulsi Gabbard anywhere near the White House (I mean, until now anyway).

Yep, I think anybody who isn't a genocidal zio could've won. The dems chose genocide over "winning". That's liberalism.

So instead the voters chose genocide + a whole lot more bad stuff.
- There is still a lot of Arabs, Blacks, Latinos, Asians to be genocided by the white supremacy. Punishing genocide now has the potential to save billions of lifes later on. Whoever supports or eneacts genocide needs to be politically punished. Whoever opposes it needs to be politically rewarded. This way genocide becomes a political liability and opposing genocide a political asset.

I love Bernie, but he would not have won. He's not healthy enough to have run a national campaign like that, not after his heart event in 2019.

Here from PA to tell you you're nuts, Bernie would not have won.

Also: Downvote. Since we're not mature enough to handle actual downvotes anymore.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate?

In this case I actually think the downvotes are appropriate. It's not that you're presenting a different opinion but you're not adding any reasoning or substance to your claim
- If they can deny a genocide is occuring in Gaza they can deny that Bernie would have won with the same intellectual rigor.
Also: Downvote. Since we're not mature enough to handle actual downvotes anymore.

Maybe you’re not…
- Good one
Here from PA to disagree. I believe that if Bernie had won in 2016, his VP would be our president-elect right now, and Trump would've never attempted a return to politics.
Didn't pre-stroke Fetterman win in PA? Often he was compared to Bernie, although maybe the media got that one wrong considering what stances Fetterman leans on these days.
- He did, but my opinion as someone who voted for him: he's really not accomplished anything, hasn't been the same after the stroke. I'm told his impairment is simply audio/visual but in my mind his judgment is impaired.
  
  When he won, he was running against a clown (Dr. Oz) who only narrowly beat McCormick. (McCormick just recently defeated long-time incumbent Casey and is considered much more serious and competent.) I know many people who based their vote for Fetterman on the the issue of recreational marijuana legalization (even though he doesn't have a role in accomplishing that at the state level as a US senator).
  
  Anyway, I would not expect Fetterman to be re-elected, if he even runs.

The Dems have been putting workers first under Biden the whole time. Putting workers first more than any administration in decades. You guys just believe a bunch of bad press.

He literally broke up a union strike.
- You mean the railroad workers? Did you stick around to listen to the end of the story? Where scant weeks afterward, his administration negotiated a contract for the workers that gave them more paid sick days than they were asking for.
- Are you kidding? Is that really an event you think proves your point? Please tell me you will read further on in that event than whoever sold you a partial story and fooled you into thinking that.
They can do better. The biggest issue was messaging though. They talked about how much better the economy is now, which is true if you're talking about stock value but the average American wasn't necessarily doing better, and often doing worse. They kept telling the working class they should be happy instead of focusing on how they recognize the issues and focusing on addressing them.
- Harris did... exactly that. That was a huge part of her messaging.
  
  The GOP controls the storylines that the media runs along: "Kamala just isn't being specific about her policies" when she was robustly specific, and while Trump said absolutely zero specifics about anything and no one said a word about it.
Palestine Ohio.

Oh my god shut the fuck up, that was 8 fucking years ago.

Bernie, who ran behind Harris in his own state? Yeah, ok buddy.

Harris who was polling behind Yang right before she dropped out...

I didn't vote for Bernie in the 2020 primary for the same reason I didn't vote for Biden.

Both men are too old!

You sure showed us, remind me how old is your president going to be next year and ever year after that?
- How did I "show you" by not voting for your preferred candidate in the 2020 election? Is your logic that by not voting for Bernie, I caused Biden to be elected, which then led to Trump 2024?
  
  By not voting for an old candidate for one party in the 2020 primary, I caused the election of an old candidate in the 2024 general election? Remind me to ask you about any other butterfly effects I should be wary of. Should I have toast or a muffin for breakfast tomorrow?
Bernie isn't mush for brains. He's old but still sharp as they come