Bernie Sanders: Vote Harris because Gaza is ‘not the only issue’

Once you are under dictatorship, you can't vote to hold anyone accountable. Vote for Trump and you won't have a say in what happens to Gaza. Or anything else.

yea, but you get to brag to all the other inmates in the political prison yard that you stood up for your principles by not voting!
- They'll be in the same political prisons as their primary enemies, the classic liberal Dems.
- I'm not as enthused as you to vote for a system where innocent civilians have to die for political convenience, sorry. My morals say that killing is wrong, and I don't like it.
Exactly.

"In four years, you don't have to vote again. We'll have it fixed so good, you're not gonna have to vote." - Trump
If Harris wants my vote she should at least try the bare minimum to get it. Her campaign wouldn’t let Palestinians endorse her at the DNC. Her entire message to our community is; we make no promises at all but Trump is worse. That’s no comfort to those in my community who had relatives die in bombings by US-supplied weapons. “Trump didn’t kill my relatives. Biden did.”

Why is Harris so bad at this outreach? All she has to do is make some bland comments and it would win more people over, and she can’t even do that because she thinks being a hardliner against our community will win over a few Republican votes. Clinton tried that in 2016 and it failed.
Right so people should vote Green to hold Harris accountable while they still can.
- Exactly! Because when she loses and Trump wins.... Hey.... Wait a second.....

“Gaza is not the only issue” should not be the takeaway here:

“Even on this issue [Gaza], Donald Trump and his right-wing friends are worse,” Sanders said in the six-minute video, which he posted to X. He noted that Republicans have fought to block humanitarian aid to Gaza and that Trump — who has praised Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — has suggested Gaza would be a great site for beachfront development.

Yeah, when framed that way, it's a reminder we've had to vote for compromise all along... And it's fucking fine and we have a mostly functioning society.
- And it’s fucking fine
  
  This is part of the problem with America. Centrists are so self centered that they will condone mass murder of nameless masses to keep their personal gravy train rolling.
- It’s not fine. It’s such a privilege on your part to claim that the status quo is lovely. I’ve been to funerals for people who had their relatives die in Gaza. It’s tearing apart the community watching bodies of Gazan children on social media and Harris saying she wouldn’t have changed a thing.

Protest voting doesn't work when the candidate you are protesting is the least worst option. Democrats that will not vote out of principle have been conned as badly as MAGA republicans. End of story.

I think you might be on to something. Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting? I mean, it does deliver two right-of-centre parties to power, over and over again.

Where the wheels are coming off is that one of them - and some people say both - are moving further rightwards, and this is destabilising society in America.
- Some people say… Dems are generally shit but they have definitely moved left over the last decade. A lot of new people have run and while it isn’t a sure thing by any stretch, people have been able to and have the chance to continue to move the party and also just straight up infiltrate it to push it left. Whereas the repubs have been in full sprint to the right.
- Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
  
  It absolutely is set up that way. This may or may not have been the intent of our election system, but it is the outcome.
- Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
  
  Not everything is some conspiracy to keep you down. The people who wrote the constitution just weren't perfect and had to make political compromises, which resulted in an imperfect system.
- Pretend you're a politician. You have two groups of people that want opposite things. One of them is reliable, donates and volunteers to help your campaign. The other is feckless and seems to always find new reasons to oppose you. Which would you try to please?
- Both institutional Democrat and Conservative parties are towards the right side of the spectrum, yes.
  
  The Democrats doing this is entirely their fault though. There are a number of issues where people actually skew left if the framing is set up in a certain way. The fact that they're chasing the GOP will likely blow up in their face when they lose support from their supposed "own" base because the party fails to represent them. The establishment Dems don't represent the views of Bernie or AOC, for instance, and those candidates best align with my current views.
  
  If Dems end up losing, it's because they didn't recognize the potential to seize their own destiny. The same's been true since 2016.
- Are you American?
- You’re correct. NY didn’t even let Jill Stein on the ballot.
- Young people don't get involved in the system and don't vote, nothing special about the US on that level, so it's not surprising their priorities aren't the priorities of the political options.

If you want to engage those bad faith accounts, don't respond to the Gaza thing; that's a trap. Instead, ask about other issues like climate issues, housing issues, food insecurity problems, etc. ask them what their third party candidate has planned for that and ask for evidence of these plans. They'll move goalposts and attempt to get back on Gaza. Keep them coming back to those other issues that affect Americans daily. Many of those accounts are here to derail conversation. Derail them in turn and force the conversation back on track.

Or do what I do and downvote then block, then post the occasional reminder that most of those accounts are bad faith at best.

I know. I mean I’m not a huge fan of Harris’ Gaza stance. Honestly I’m not sure why it’s political at all to call what Israel is doing wrong. But come on, Trump will be 100 times worse. And that’s just on the Israel/Gaza thing. I’m not sure how you can look at these two and decide that Harris is wrong enough about the Gaza thing that you come to the conclusion that either a third party or Trump vote is warranted. Which makes me believe is not genuine and likely foreign agent spreading chaos and misinformation.
- It's because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
  
  Harris can't afford to not court them.
  
  I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
- There is no foreign agent, idiot. You are spamming the whole internet with your election bullcrap, dont be surprise if people give their opinion.
  
  My opinion? If there was any justice, harris/bidden would be executed. Trump too. Your country is inherently evil and should be disolved.
So you want to argue in bad faith.

It’s fine to debate the idea that Gaza should not be the most important issue this election, but if your plan is to troll people and do fallacious debate then you’re not helping anyone. If you want to sell out Palestinians for personal gain, just be honest about it.
If there’s anybody this election cycle shows us, it’s that americans do not care about foreigners life at all. They would gladly throw entire countries under the bus if it means that they get to keep living their comfortable, violence-free lifestyle, putting their little ballot like cowards instead of actually fighting fascism.
Nobody cares about americans. They are overtly genocide-supporter.

If I am ever in a position where I can pick between a genocide in america and a worst genocide in america, well, let's say I will care about our housing issues ahah.
- Your pro genocide stance has been noted.

Here come the tankies to call Bernie Sanders BlueMAGA in 3...2...

Here come the ~~tankies~~ Russian trolls to call Bernie Sanders BlueMAGA in 3...2...

Fixed that for you
Somehow 'tankie' now means not wanting to send tanks to commit a genocide

Way to get out in front of them by casting moral consistency as a bad thing though. Devastating.
- Tankie means anyone promoting actions that would have a devastating impact on America as a whole (e.g. Trump returning to office).

Bernie is such a good guy. The Dems have done him dirty so many times, they are currently continuing to support many harmful policies but he understands what's at stake and he puts all of that aside to do the best he can.

He doesn't have to do this. He's 83 years old and while his cognitive health is outstanding for his age, someone his age doesn't need to be on this grind for us. He probably won't stop until he's forced to due to his health. I love the guy and it's a shame we weren't given the chance to see him take the presidency.

He is a leader.

I remember that old footage of him in Burlington in the 70's, talking to random kids in the mall, asking them what was important to them--drug policy, free speech, good schools--and just talking to them about how they could make a difference. From the bully pulpit, he would have been transformative.
- Got 8 1/2 hours to spare?
Agree 100%, but he's not a god. He can be wrong, same as everyone else. I think he played this wrong.
- He's always been a social imperialist and had the same murderous nazi foreign policy as the rest of the state. He was always a compromise for leftists.
  
  Just look at how he acted during the recent coups/attempted coups in south america.

I was a Bernie-or-Bust-er in 2016 because I was confident Hilary was going to win with or without my vote. I deeply regret taking that stance and feel like I let down every woman who's lost rights to their bodily autonomy, every family who was separated at the border, everybody whose life was lost or ruined due to the Trump administration's incompetent response to the COVID-19 outbreak, and everybody else who has been harmed by the Trump administration.

Don't be like me. It sucks having to vote for the lesser of two evils but that's how our system works and not voting or voting third-party isn't going to change that but it does run the risk of things getting a lot worse.

Can I ask what state you were voting from in 2016?
- TX at the time. Generally regarded as solidly red. However, looking at the numbers in '16 and '20, I wouldn't be surprised if everybody in the state who had either voted third-party or not at all because of the belief that their vote wouldn't make a difference would have indeed been enough to potentially flip the state.

The fantasy world the zero-tolerance high-ground morality angels live in is as dangerous as the one MAGA lives in, and ironically has the same victims. They proudly polish their halos nice and shiny while they let the world burn.

Don't support genocide, it's as simple as that!

By the way: Voting isn't actually support. The American system is not set up in a way where votes actually add to the power of the Presidential office. On the other hand, making a deliberate choice not to act does mean supporting whatever happens without your action, which could be genocide. This means YOU HAVE TO VOTE HARRIS IN ORDER TO NOT SUPPORT GENOCIDE. The socialism angels are hypocrites.
- there are two facts about this election
  
  there are only two outcomes—0.0% chance for a third party win
  
  both candidates have a bad stance on the genocide
  
  so neither outcome will help with the genocide. acting like voting third party helps in any way shape or form is disingenuous at best. so what should you do?
  
  my argument is that you should vote for the person you can hope to convince on this issue. phone calls, protests, social media, whatever means you have... which of these candidates is more likely to respond to any kind of public pressure about this?
  
  Harris might be responsive, and let's be honest, she might not be. but you know for a fact that it's definitely not the fucking orange turd. Natenyahu wants him to win. how can you ignore that?
- "Vote for the candidate who will continue to fund a genocide to show you dont support genocide "
  
  Man yall will do anything to avoid a socialist movement.
- What they think their vote contributes to:
- Voting isn’t actually support
  
  On the other hand, making a deliberate choice not to act does mean supporting whatever happens without your action
  
  Interesting. So, by drag's logic, a Trump voter isn't responsible for supporting Trump, but a nonvoter is.
  
  It's amusing to see the kinds of ridiculous knots y'all tie yourselves into trying to twist around language in an attempt to resolve your cognitive dissonance and punch left.
- I see what you're trying to do drag but it just doesn't track.
- Fuck off drag. The US dems are guilty of extermination and everybody who vote in this election are complicit. You can call them to throw foreigners under the bus for their own gain and security, since they are bullying people to vote for the genocide party just because the other side said they were gonna be worst.
  
  When somebody commit a crime, you punish this person, you dont give them power because some other dude talked shit.

I'm not sure why people haven't been saying this more.

I have been. It tends to get downvoted by both extremes on Lemmy.
- On my instance, the UI doesn't even give a downvote option. There's probably a way around that, though, not that I am interested.
  
  Getting rid of downvotes is, I think, a good thing.
It's a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter, and we can be pretty sure that Harris will continue current Biden Admin policies on it. You can't argue for the hundred other policies at stake without knowingly allowing genocide to happen with US approval.

But here's the thing: there are two very prominent Jewish people who don't believe for a second that both sides are the same. One of them is Bernie Sanders. The other is Benjamin Netanyahu.
- It’s a fundamentally uncomfortable position. The people of Gaza matter
  
  Thank you for saying this.
  
  If I were American, I would surely vote for Harris. But I would want to have been able to do more to keep people safe from state terrorism.
- Foreigners life NEVER mattered to americans. Supremacism is so engrained in their culture they think "both sides are for genocide anyway" is a normal, ok thing to ever utter. They are read to throw the rest of us under the bus instead of actually fighting against fascism.
I've been foolishly arguing with people for months on this topic.
We have been, everywhere we can.

That's a bad headline. Watch his video, he makes a much more nuanced argument.

Hey look, someone finally posted an article about this so the mods don't remove it!

Here's the link to the actual speech from Sanders: https://youtu.be/Vf5MThSniiY

I came to the Politics community 9 hours after it was posted to find discussion. Nothing.

Personally I feel an exception should be made when the news is literally just a video, why wait for a journalist to regurgitate it in written form?

Anyway

Not voting for a candidate is not the only, nor the most effective way to push a party to change positions on an issue you care about.

People should vote how they want, but should continue to push to replace First past the post voting in their state so people can vote how they want and still count their vote against the republicans.

Electoral reform is such a no brainer, it's a shame the democratic party puts it's desire for easy wins over the security and stability of the nation.
If there’s anybody this election cycle shows us, it’s that americans do not care about foreigners life at all. They would gladly throw entire countries under the bus if it means that they get to keep living their comfortable, violence-free lifestyle, putting their little ballot like cowards instead of actually fighting fascism.

Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron. Trump may be even more pro Israel...

Ah yes he will give them unlimited weapons and money to bomb children. Oh wait
We know that Harris will let the zionists do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, no matter what it costs the US. Your saying theres much difference between that and whatever Trump plans is dumb. Is Trump going to double kill people and double steal their land?

Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron

I think war crimes surrogates are worse than morons.
- You really think there's a complete carte blanche from either the current administration or will likely be under Harris? Don't get me wrong. Israel has gone way overboard, but me assure you it could be a lot worse.
  
  Infact, the actions of Trump during his administration included moving the US embassy in an extremely controversial move and even the war criminal Netanyahu meets Trump personally - when he is not even President.
  
  Are you saying that taking action like not voting for Harris, which will help enable a Trump victory, is the correct course of action to reduce Palestinian and Lebanese suffering? Your approach doesn't make any sense if your goal is to reduce suffering.
- You have good points and valid reasons to be upset in this election. If we don't see change in this administration now, why should we expect it going forward?
  
  That said, I would like you to consider a perspective shift on the impact of voting. Put yourself in the shoes of a politician. What is your bottom line? It's to get reelected.
  
  If you aren't in a position of power, you can't pass any bills. You can't push any agendas. You can't stop wars. You affect nothing. This is true for politicians, CEOs, Popes, dictators, board presidents, school principles, and homeowners association presidents.
  
  In order to keep that power, you need to make your keys to power happy. In a democracy, there are a lot of keys- those are your voting blocks. The rich, the military, unions, families, students, different ethnicities, different religions- you need to calculate which blocks are most likely to get you reelected.
  
  Now a lot of people wonder why is it that American election campaigns seem to go on forever. They take years. This is because candidates are looking to see who they can bring in to their side. Voters who they don't please go to their opposition.
  
  Let's fast forward to after the election. You have won the presidency and are eager to get to work- but guess what, in 4 years you will need to do this all over again. This time, you look at the blocks who voted for you. These blocks were the ones who successfully got you in power, and you want to keep them happy. It's easier to keep voters than to flip voters, this is the incumbents advantage.
  
  You look at your voting blocks, and you notice there is a large chunk of your previous "supporters" (not that they like you necessarily, just that they voted for you) who want to end arms sales to Israel. If large enough, this group will be pivitol to your next victory. You may have run on a pro Israel stance, but if your electorate needs you to change, you will change.
  
  This doesn't mean protest sit outs aren't effective. Michigan had a large vote for Palestine in Biden's primary campaign. After that result came through, the administration took on more moderate rhetoric. It's empty, but a first signal nonetheless. If this happened in Illinois or Washington State, his campaign would have ignored it, but since Michigan is a swing state, they paid attention.
  
  In this election, I'm voting for Harris. However, down ballot I'm voting for pro-palestine candidates. Trump's voting blocks clearly favor Israel, but Harris has a divide she needs to address, and if she sees enough voters voting pro-palestine down ballot, she is much more likely to change her course.
  
  For a deeper look into power structures and how leaders are influenced, I'd recommend watching CGP Grey's 20 minute video on the rules for Rulers.
  
  There is so much nuance in this discussion that it's difficult to put all counterpoints into a Lemmy comment while I'm sitting on the pot, but I hope this gives you some more questions to consider as you make the bridge between your values, ideal outcomes, realistic outcomes, and pragmatic strategies for getting that done.

Gaza is hardly even an issue on the ballot, you're picking between slow genocide and fast genocide.

Slow genocide is better though. We all get that right?
- Certainly gives us more time to try to do something about it, yeah.
- Slow genocide is better
- Frankly no. Oppression like this is worse than slaughter. There’s a reason Gazans are telling reporters and social media they are relieved when their loved ones die, because they’re literally starving and in pain and squalor.
Which one should you prefer slowly genocide by starvation, diseases.

Or

Fast genocide by increased bombing and worse weapons.

I don't think this is a choice anyone would want to choose from.
- Then we agree that Gaza isnt a partisan choice, but to answer your rhetorical I would choose slow simply because there will always be an avenue for justice as long as some of Palestine remains.

Unfortunately Gaza is a non issue. The situation would only be handled worse under the other candidate. Along with just about every other conceivable thing.

America voting for the lesser evil since 1792.

It's not the time to stop now. But I better see all of you on the streets with signs on November 6th.

For real.

Today, massive supporter for Harris.

Post-election, I shall go back to being a massive critic.

Shitty situation all around. Once heard politics are like public transportation. Won't give me a door-to-door ride to the destination I'm aiming for, so I'll take it to get as close as possible.
- Boy just wait until I have zero leverage or voice. Then I'll show em
Lesser-evilism has gotten us to where we find ourselves today: bargaining with genocide. If you don't stop now, I wonder what it would take.
- We should have stopped when the alternative was McCain or Romney. We can have a chance to stop again when the alternative is similarly more sane than Trump.

I can't wait for blue conservatives to blame Bernie Sanders for whatever fuckup they do next.

I'd really like to see someone who has the power to actually do something stand up to Israel and knock them down a peg or 2.

The information that I've seen about Israel's attack on Iran over the weekend has some outrageous levels of discrepancy. Israel claims it crippled all of Iran's air defenses and its ability to produce drones and missiles. Iran claims it intercepted the attack with limited damage (and a few confirmed fatalities). The truth is almost certainly between these 2 points with tons of propaganda and straight-up misinformation, but despite the "Iran Dome" bravado I'm not convinced that Iran's defense was particularly successful.

I am no fan of Iran by any stretch and would prefer a more benign entity to step in and do something, but seeing them keep Israel in check would have been a welcome change. I guess my mindset is that you never really want one group to have too much power over others because being able to act with impunity opens the door for the worst types of behavior.

Gaza is not the only issue? Tell that to the main stream media.

Current Politics can be summarized into 3 things.

Israel
The Opponent
The Election

Anything else doesn't exist in their eyes. My grandfather had his Fubo running last night, I kid you not 10 minutes of ads, and every single one of them was based off one of those 3 categories. I asked him why he's paying 95$ a month to watch smear campaigns and the same 3 topics over and over.

First of all, at this point people in the US should vote against Trump for their safety, and that means in the current political system they have to vote for Harris. That's the reality they have to face. The Trump party has made fascist announcements that are real and people should expect them to be made into real actions.

The problem is that the Democrats frankly have abysmal messaging and are drifting to the right further and further while using Trump as a threat to their voters. They adopt anti-immigrant policies and are distancing themselves from pro-LGBT stances, saying it's the states decision. Both these issues as well as demands for a ceasefire poll exceptionally well, but the Harris campaign seemingly don't want the edge. With all this they are signaling that right wing worries about immigrants and trans people are valid, although that's absolutely not the case, and leave people to decide for example "do I want anti-immigrant light or extra harsh anti-immigrant?" when everybody says immigrants are an issue. This is unacceptably stupid and risking the vote. And that's ignoring the elephant in the room that progressive policy like health care is exceptionally popular and using that as counter messaging would win her voters.

We've seen how popular the Democrats got after Harris took over and Walz got nominated. It signaled change. Now all the Democrats say that it's gonna be the same old as usual treading on and the same bad argument vote us or you'll get a dictatorship. I'm not denying Biden dropping out had nothing to do with the surge of popularity, but back then we also had comments like here, basically declaring any dissent from supporting a decrepit old man as the candidate as heresy. Now there are again, only Yes men here saying if you criticize Harris you're a bot or a Trump ass eater. What is wrong with you?

Finally, I have the creeping suspicion that Democratic establishment people don't fear a fascist Trump administration themselves personally as much as the population has to. Trump announces he will go after his enemies, Latinos and trans people (probably all queer people actually). He has anti women's health and rights messaging all over his campaign. But that doesn't seem to be a risk for people higher up in the party. I suspect that when you're rich you don't have to worry about abortion bans or HRT access. And if Trump threatens them with violence they always have money they can throw at him. It's much more comfortable to run a risky neo liberal and right wing platform against a fascist if you can jump ship later on.

Most of Lemmy thinks you should vote against Kamala on principle against genocide and if Trump gets elected and makes the genocide far worse than it would’ve been under Kamala that that is a preferred outcome and somehow they won’t have blood on their hands.

They think it's better to make things worse if you personally can avoid blame for it on a technicality.
Everyone, including you, has a line, where you will say, "no more, I will not participate in this evil". Maybe for you its having American kids in the US lined up on a wall and shot if they shoplift, or something. For some people its having the Dem candidate openly support mass murder. The fact that your line doesnt match others is natural and is no reason to denigrate those other people.

You'll get to where we are soon enough.
- Your actions will produce more harm than good if Trump gets elected. What a privileged life you must live to be able to make a stand on principle — even though that will produce a worse outcome for the people you supposedly care about. The additional blood that will be shed is very much on your hands.
  
  You don’t get to just walk away from the situation absolved of guilt because of your so called principles.
Most of Lemmy is doing mental gymnastics just like this to convince themselves that voting for the person doing genocide makes them anti genocide.

I don't believe they're speaking in good faith. I think they just don't give a shit about human lives when they're brown and across the world.
- a vote isn't an endorsement. Pretending the US system is some kind of idealic democracy where you are presented a platter of issues to vote on and can do those independently is delusional. We live in a perpetual trolley problem. Not pulling the lever is far more evil here.

Statement: government in Ukraine changed in 2014.

Your response: that new government had the support of the people, therefore that statement is false

This is a non-sequitor. The government either changed or it didn't. Whether the people supported it or not doesn't fundamentally change the statement.

I'm starting to think you are a bot, someone with very low reading comprehension, or simply a malicious actor.

If you refuse to engage in this attempt to reach a set of facts we can agree on, then we will never move forward.

I could say the sky is blue and the grass is green and you would yell me I am justifying capitalism's embrace of carbon emissions and the death of the climate.

Do you understand how that works? There are expectations specifically carved out for Israel, which require Blinken to initiate that process.

No, no, no, you see, you should see Gaza as the only issue and ignore all the other issues because <insert word salad here>. ^Awaiting ^check, ^komrade.

The tactic is just about the same as the MAGA side, try to get people emotionally involved without thinking and lock them into a state so emotionally charged they are unwilling to back down.

Nazis used the exact thought terminating cliche, they just used 'Jews' instead of 'Russia'

try to get people emotionally involved without thinking and lock them into a state so emotionally charged they are unwilling to back down.

breathtaking irony
- Sorry, I don't speak .ml

hoohoooo, all the single-issue "progressives" and Bernie bros who have been screaming at me for saying the same thing have to scream at Bernie now.

that'll be funny.

They screamed at Bernie when he endorsed Clinton after she got the DNC nomination in 2016. They called him "sell out" and such.
- Bernie supporters also ended up being one of the most loyal voting blocks for Clinton.
  
  A higher percentage of his voters backed Clinton than her voters backed Obama in 2008
  
  From https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/did-bernie-sanders-cost-hillary-clinton-the-presidency/
  
  As a Bernie bro that voted for Clinton in 2016, there is this very small number of very voca Bernie supporters that screech the loudest and give everyone else a bad name.
- goofy goofers
As a non-american, I am disguissed by their overt support for genocide and will gladly spit on the face of the next yank tourist I see on the street.

I would avoid international travel for the next few years ahah
- not sure you're allowed in the first place
Bernie refused to call it a genocide as late as February. He showed his true colors a long time ago.
- "his true colors", like you have a hint of cause to cast aspersions on one of the most consistent, sincere and moral American politicians of all time.
  
  get out of here with your disingenuous vague hints.

Sorry Bernie but after Hillary ousted you and then Biden was shoehorned through the primary in 2020 I voted for Gloria LA riva and now I've written in Claudia de la Cruz / Karina Garcia. I think voting left of center or even a vote for that hack Jill Stein actually would show the DNC they are losing votes based on their continued shift to the right and I am even considering leaving the party on my registration over their antidemocratic primaries and their decisions to fund the campaigns of right wing extremists under the misguided notion that they're easier to beat.

Dont get me wrong, I hope Harris/Walz wins but I do not support them because their positions continue to reinforce the status quo and prop up a system that supports fascism today, right now, at home and abroad.

Otherwise im voting downballot blue except where there is a further left independent which in my area is viable for another statewide position. Thats the most practical support the " at least I'm not the other guy" strategy will get from me, and they didnt even earn it

The problem of the US is that you might lose more voters by dumping Israel than you'd gain by supporting Palestine.

Is there actual polling to that effect?
- There are some polls that show roughly 35 to 60 percent of US voters backing the sale of arms to Israel, depending on demographics, but there is a very clear divide between Republican and Democrat support so it's disingenuous to say a candidate will lose more support than they gain because that depends on which candidate.
  
  A lot of these polls also use loaded questions like "who is responsible for this conflict" with the two choices being Hamas and Israel, which doesn't really capture any of the nuance of the situation or represent the beliefs of the person answering the question.
- As of september, 61 percent of 335 million Americans want to stop the shipments. https://theintercept.com/2024/09/10/polls-arms-embargo-israel-weapons-gaza/
The problem of the US is that you might lose more voters by dumping Israel than you’d gain by supporting Palestine.

Not really. Jews generally are 1-2 percent of the population, split between dem and repub-- and not all jews beleive in this interpretation of zionism. Much more than half of the 335 million Americans want to at least be neutral in gaza. This would seem to indicate that thered be net votes to be gained by stopping the shipments. The rub is that theres a lot of money behind AIPAC, and usually whoever spends the most wins. It would be rational for Harris to pivot at the last second when money starts to lose its value to the immediate outcome. But it risks the monied donors lining up on the repub side for the next election. AIPAC funds both sides and doesnt care who wins as long as they get to puppet our government.
No one actually votes with Gaza or Isreal as a core issue outside of NYC, and the state is eternally blue no matter what.

For better or worse the majority of America doesn't even acknowledge(or even care) the conflict as an issue outside of the terminally online.

Yea for real the amount of myopic one issue voices must be that of the privileged or Russian propaganda because WE ALL KNOW that hardworking normal Americans struggle with more than one issue that is 5000 miles away.

struggle with more than one issue that is 5000 miles away.

Humans could be killing innocent people in another galaxy. I still don't approve of killing innocent people. Distance doesn't matter.

If you must sacrifice humans elsewhere for the good of your political system, kill me. I accept the sacrifice. I will die in their place. I will give Israel my address. If someone must die, I will do it.

I just do not enjoy hearing, every day, about children being killed in bombings. It makes me not want to be alive.
one issue that is 5000 miles away.

What does distance matter? And are all issues the same? mass murder of innocents vs grazing rights on federal lands, equally important in your eyes? Both "single issues"?

Your vote only actually matters if you're in a wing state. If you aren't you should be voting PSL or greens.

vote blue to start turning the state into a swing state. Definitely don't vote green as they are on the record of trying to make trump win
- How will voting for the Dems make New York into a swing state?

Wish the push was to tell the Democratic party not to engage with genocide not to tell us we have to suck it up to vote for genocide anyway.

He's said this too... but of course you don't actually care about that fact.
- Ok... Just saying it's sad. Do you not think it's sad?
  
  Edit: actually no what the fuck is this reply? What fact don't I care about? That Bernie agrees that this is fucked. What did I say that you take issue with?
  
  Jesus Christ. I'm so tired of you genocide minimizers
Put it a different way: if both candidates are willing to turn a blind eye to genocide, who do you think you'd have a better chance lobbying to change their stance? One support a cease fire and a two state solution. The other doesn't think a two start solution could work, and that Israel needs to do whatever they need to do to get the war over with.
- I'm clear both are for the extermination of Palestinians and will support Israel in all their wars. I think we're kidding ourselves acting like the difference between the two on those issues is substantial at all. They both are lobbied to so much by Israel's pac
  
  Source for lobbying
  
  Based on this i'd think its harder to lobby the Dems but I really think neither party is movable on their positions in respect to Israel.
  
  Totally agree that Kamala will be better on everything else though. Just find it fucked that we're told to suck it up on the pro genocide stances.

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Sometimes there are "issues" that we must absolutely not compromise on. "Why gain the world to lose your soul?"

Such as letting fascists into power.

Unless you have friends and family there. People here act like it's irrational or hateful to want byut to vote for Harris, and I get it, Trump is worse, but at the same time, this is literally the only way some of these voters have to influence the candidate and her platform. I have stepped away from this conversation because I have changed my mind and think you should vote against trump, but also because it's full of trolls and it's impossible to have a reasonable debate.

I considered donating money with a note saying that it was for pulling Israel back in gaza. However, a friend asked me for help and I did that. I'm assuming if they got a number of donations from people mentioning gaza as an issue, it would have an effect.

No thanks, genocide is my biggest concern and you dont get to decide it isnt

biggest != only
- No shit. Enjoy Trump again, guess liberals have learned nothing from 2016. If you have no progressive policies or stand for none of them, you will not win
What a privileged existence you must lead to be able to have a single issue define you.
- And you have privilege to say your issues overrule actual human lives. What’s another 50,000 dead Palestinians to you?
  
  Personally I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night voting for someone who had a hand in that mountain of dead children, but you seem fine to ignore atrocities committed in your name.
  
  Don’t blame me, blame Harris for being unwilling to even say something on the issue without walking it back. Nobody is stopping her.
- What a privileged existence you must have to ignore a genocide

Stop pretending Harris also doesn't have absolutely horrible immigration, environmental and police policies as well.

No politically viable candidate will have environmental policies sufficient to properly address climate change. We are so unbelievably behind the 8-ball on this.
*Record Scratch*

She doesn't.
- I mean she does she supports police funding, violence against refugees and half arsed environmental policies hell she is pro-fracking for example.
- she does.

Holy hell, you liberals really have gone completely off the rocker in your corner of Lemmy, huh? I mean, Jesus Christ the shit I am reading in these comments is completely insane.

“Everyone I disagree with is a foreign agent”, say the people whose same views Israel are literally running bot farms about.

“Trump would be worse”, say the people who have admitted that the genocide of Palestine is an acceptable means to an end, as if queer folks are supposed to believe you won’t be their next tool of convenience to be discarded.

“Look at all these policy differences”, say the party who brag about being half Republicans and use their policies.

Y’all are going to lose, and it’s not going to be because of the 100 US leftists on Lemmy.

I’m sure you’ll blame us anyway though, because liberals have objectively abandoned reality.

Look at yourselves. You’ve become MAGA, and don’t even try to deny it. This is the shit you made fun of Republicans for doing for 4 years of Trump. I thought Democracy was about winning votes, not demanding them under threats of violence? Or is this another one of PugJesus’ cronies?

Ok gaslighter

Yeah, the US elections have a high chance of losing, largely due to large disinformation campaigns not unlike the one your comment forms a part of.
- Could it be what you're calling "disinformation campaigns" is just normal dude like myself appealed at america'action in the last few years (I mean decades).
  
  You guys sucks. Biden/Harris should be in jail for their complicity. Trump is a fascist and should be executed. Fix your idiotic country.
Holy hell, you liberals really have gone completely off the rocker in your corner of Lemmy, huh? I mean, Jesus Christ the shit I am reading in these comments is completely insane.

Nice one komrad! These stupid Americans can't fathom how far we can move the goalposts!

“Everyone I disagree with is a foreign agent”, say the people whose same views Israel are literally running bot farms about.

Da! DA! Sprinkle the truth in so they can't use it against us! This is why you make the best borscht!

“Trump would be worse”, say the people who have admitted that the genocide of Palestine is an acceptable means to an end, as if queer folks are supposed to believe you won’t be their next tool of convenience to be discarded.

Putin will be proud of your efforts komrad, I'm sure of it. Not only did you defend komrad Trump, but you tossed in a genocide grenade! These dumb Americans can't see through the web of lies you weave. It's truely an art from you. You even managed to attack the homosexuals, god bless you!

Oh blyat! I did not realize this is a public channel!
- McCartists thinking they are funny with their overused joke. The truth is accusing opponents to be part of a fifth column always had been integral part of all war propaganda. Remember when everybody who opposed the vietnam war was a moscow spy?
Counterpoint, you're a Russian bot, you hate freedom, you hate democracy, and you hate America :3
Only comment that make sense here

Love you Bernie, but get bent.

War in Gaza... Is Bernie still doing genocide denial?

He can't be using the word "Genocide" specifically, because the international court and UN as well as many very old documents allow 3rd party intervention to stop a genocide, meaning by saying that exact word he would be advocating the invasion of an allied nation which is grounds for expulsion from the senate. I'm sure the 49 Republicans and a couple Dems would love to throw his ass out if a vote came up.

Anybody who wants Bernie to use the word Genocide just wants a Republican Senate Majority, doesn't care about Gaza, stop faking asshole.
- Back then: "This will ensure we never tolerate genocide again!"
  
  Now: mandatory genocide denial
- word he would be advocating the invasion of an allied nation which is grounds for expulsion from the senate
  
  Citation needed. AFAIK, the Senate is allowed to discuss whether a nation should be considered an ally, and whether or not to invade a sovereign nation.
  
  Or did you mean he would be "recalled" (by his constituents) rather than "expelled" (by his fellow senators)?
- https://tlaib.house.gov/posts/tlaib-statement-on-the-ongoing-genocide-of-palestinians-and-invasion-of-rafah

Is this going to be American politics for the rest of time: continually voting for least worst of two options which will cause observable harm?

If yes, it would be nice if that changes at some point, thanks.

Support single transferable vote ranked choice voting if you want more options.
- Approval voting is also good. Really any of the alternatives create more representative outcomes.
That's how it's going to be as long as we continue to use First Past the Post voting.

And since the only people who have the desire, and potentially the power, to change that are Progressives who caucus with the Democrats, vote Progressive in the primaries and Democrat in the general. If you're not willing to do that, then yeah you might as well get comfortable with the current system.
- Not only, it's democracy at it's core. Because there is no "perfect " leader, it's an illusion that people like trump are more than happy to sell for the masses, but unfortunately even some progressive are buying it. Democracy is based on pragmatic nagotiations and gradual progress.
- The rest of the world doesn't care about your internal politics. Fix your stupid country and stop supporting genocide.
I call it "defensive" voting. Not voting for actual progress, just voting to prevent further deterioration.

I put practicality over ideology, and in accordance with this have already voted for Harris. But I can still express my disappointment.
- You are right, and this is what I would end up doing if I were an American citizen, however I am not, and have never even visited either American continent.
  
  However, as someone who grew up as an abused child, harmed by a society that blamed me for being poor, disabled, autistic, and an immigrant, I cannot help but feel that I would gladly swap my own life to save even one innocent person harmed by state terrorism. It leaves me feeling like I would prefer to be dead that see this happening.
You work on changing it between and across elections. When in the ballot booth with fixed options, you pick the least harmful for the most at risk in the community, of the candidates that actually have a competitive chance of winning.
Thats the natural end game of capitalism, yes.

Not much you can do about it, it's human nature.
- Not much you can do about it, it’s human nature.
  
  I think there is time for humans to prove otherwise, but maybe not so much as humans would want.

Gunna vote twice, once for each candidate, so I double my chances of ensuring genocide. It's what america was founded on, it's what our forefathers would have wanted.

How very Russian of you considering that's exactly how their last election went.
- No idea what you're talking about, I don't own a single tracksuit and I don't even like vodka.

Someone running for office should not be entitled to a vote simply because the opposition is bad. Even if they're as bad as Trump. I wish more people demanded better from their leaders, it would stop this ridiculous slide to the right the entire American political system has been going though for decades.

You fix that by pushing for ranked choice balloting, until then, it's your job to get the least objectionable person elected, which in this case is Harris.
- I agree with the first part, not the second however. This situation of voting for the least objectionable person led us to this kind of election. I want more progressives to demand progress and making it conditional to their vote instead of just accepting the least shitty option because the other one is a fascist dickhead. MAGA won't go away if Harris gets elected, even with a majority of the house and senate. Until America demands better than their politics will just continually slide to the right. Ranked choice balloting would be a major gamechanger, I just don't see it happening at all. Not with the current political climate.
So you're a nazi, got it. Blocked.
Agreed. Chasing an electorate where the loudest shout they want more hate, which is what I (perhaps incorrectly) see happening from elsewhere in the world, is not good for the political system. It just legitimises hate.

Just say you do not care Bernie. We all know it. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/30/bernie-sanderss-failure-to-back-gaza-ceasefire-disappoints-us-supporters

the antisemites have to be clearly and succinctly told this, you see